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Author Topic: Flat/Scope & Super35
Brett Rankin
Film Handler

Posts: 78
From: Sierra Madre, CA
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 06-24-2000 01:44 AM      Profile for Brett Rankin   Email Brett Rankin   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I've been tinkering around with an idea that must have flaws I'm not thinking of. Why not print flat (1.85) in the scope format like they do in trailers? According to my quick and dirty calculations (using an approximate 1.8:1 scope frame) regular flat film utilizes 64% of the frame, but flat printed scope uses 78% of the frame. That means there would be 14% more light on the screen and a generally higher quality image. Theaters would then need only a single lens and 1 aperture plate, cutting costs. The only reason I can think of why this is not being done is because of top masking. Theaters that have a larger flat image than scope would then have a tiny image, but is that the only reason?Feel free to shoot the idea down or correct my figures...

The second issue I have is with the increasingly popular Super35 filming format. What is the point of shooting a film flat (albeit with a slightly larger frame area) and then cropping it to the 2.4 aspect ratio instead of just using an anamorphic lens? With super 35 you get more grain and lower resolution, not to mention I dislike the fact that you actually see more image on video than you do in theaters. It can't be a cost issue- Titanic, Independence Day and Gladiator used it. So WHY??

I'm done. Thank you.

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John Wilson
Film God

Posts: 5438
From: Sydney, Australia.
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 06-24-2000 04:41 AM      Profile for John Wilson   Email John Wilson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Have a search of the archives and look for a topic called 'flat films'. You'll find some reasoning and opinions there.

------------------
"I could never be a woman. I'd just sit at home and play with my breasts all day."

Steve Martin - L.A. Story

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Joe Redifer
You need a beating today

Posts: 12859
From: Denver, Colorado
Registered: May 99


 - posted 06-24-2000 04:42 AM      Profile for Joe Redifer   Author's Homepage   Email Joe Redifer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Brett,

This will NEVER happen!!!!!!!!! Why not? because it makes sense! Our industry frowns upon things that make sense.

Of course, I would still rather have two aperatures and one lens. But the REAL solution would be to eliminate anything but scope!

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Pat Moore
Master Film Handler

Posts: 363

Registered: Mar 2000


 - posted 06-24-2000 06:20 AM      Profile for Pat Moore   Email Pat Moore   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
John Pytlak would love to comment on this, I'm sure. A pet peeve of so many of us has been the wasted real estate in a film image where those big black frame lines never made any sense. John's pushing a new "Flat" format that would use the entire film frame that would (almost) give us a "one aperture, two lens" situation. I'm all behind the creative community that says they need the 1.85 ratio, but let's make it as good as we can.

Pat

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Scott Norwood
Film God

Posts: 8146
From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas)
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 06-24-2000 06:27 AM      Profile for Scott Norwood   Author's Homepage   Email Scott Norwood   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Personally, I really like the idea of the 1.5x squeeze ratio for 1.85:1 films (print format only; the camera format would remain the same), but, alas, that will probably never happen, either.

I also think that every screen of every theatre should be properly equipped to show all four common formats: 1.37 flat/Academy, 1.66 European widescreen, 1.85 American Widescreen, and 2.40 CinemaScope, but that won't happen, either...

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Christos Mitsakis
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 242
From: Ag.Paraskevi, ATHENS, GREECE
Registered: Sep 1999


 - posted 06-24-2000 07:02 AM      Profile for Christos Mitsakis   Email Christos Mitsakis   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The major advantage of filming in flat is that using spherical lenses you have greater depth of field. Also Spherical lenses are faster (smaller f-stops - or better T-stops)than the anamorphic equivalent and therefore need less light to "write" on film.

C.


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John Walsh
Film God

Posts: 2490
From: Connecticut, USA, Earth, Milky Way
Registered: Oct 1999


 - posted 06-24-2000 08:13 AM      Profile for John Walsh   Email John Walsh   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Christos has hit on the reasons Super 35 is popular. Some directors do not like the look of anamorphic adapters.

I copied this from a posting by a guy (David Mullen) at r.a.m.t. I would like to meet him someday; he seems very knowedgable and is always very clear with explanations;

-------------------
"-snip-.....[anamorphic lenses like] Arriscopes, Hawks, Powerscopes, Technovision, Todd-AO, Clairmont, JDC, etc. They all vary in terms of sharpness, speed, distortion, matching, breathing, flaring, minimum focus, etc. You make tests to determine which you want to use.

For example, I know someone who tested the Arriscopes and said they were incredibly sharp (sharper than Hawks) with no flare problems but were also really big & heavy and breathed badly when focused -- while the Hawks flared badly but hardly breathed when focusing."
---------------------

Anyway, the point is that some directors would rather sacrifice grain for the "look" of flat. I don't think this is a *really* bad thing, if other factors are carefully done (copying the negatives, good optical printer lenses when formating for release prints, etc.) Carefully done, film can yeild a very high quality image, even after blowing it up.
Hey, shooting in 65mm would be my choice, but that's not going to happen.

I used to really like the idea of release prints with 1.5 squeeze for 1.85. And, it still not a bad idea. But now its just too much work for all the theater.

70mm is already in theaters; why pay to develop and roll out another format? And the theaters are where the image improvement has to be. Maxivision (3 perf format,) Iscovision (1.5 squeeze for 1.85) are good ideas, but are too hard to implement and don't improve the image enough to continue to make film *the* viewing medium for the next 100 years.

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Greg Anderson
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 766
From: Ogden Valley, Utah
Registered: Nov 1999


 - posted 06-24-2000 09:52 AM      Profile for Greg Anderson   Author's Homepage   Email Greg Anderson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
There's too much to quote right now, but if you can find the issue of American Cinematographer magazine which discusses Titanic you'll find a lot of information about Super 35 and why James Cameron prefers it. He also goes into detail about how he works with film labs to address the issues of grain and contrast. He makes an excellent case for his choice of Super 35.

Then find the issue which discusses Saving Private Ryan and you'll discover why Steven Spielberg has abandoned the 2.4 aspect ratio. He doesn't make such an excellent case for his choice, but at least he explains it.

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Joe Redifer
You need a beating today

Posts: 12859
From: Denver, Colorado
Registered: May 99


 - posted 06-24-2000 02:41 PM      Profile for Joe Redifer   Author's Homepage   Email Joe Redifer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Isn't Stevey-boy worried about how his films will look on video? Remember, video presentation is much more important than film presentation.

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Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 06-24-2000 02:59 PM      Profile for Gordon McLeod   Email Gordon McLeod   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Actually everything should be shot on either 65mm neg for scope releases and VistaVision for flat releases
Paramount in conjunction with rank tried to get a 1.5:1 squeezed vistavision prints back in the fifties
That was what the variable anamorphic was developed for turn the dial and do both

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Brett Rankin
Film Handler

Posts: 78
From: Sierra Madre, CA
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 06-25-2000 01:12 AM      Profile for Brett Rankin   Email Brett Rankin   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Greg,

I did find the Saving P. Ryan issue, couldn't track down the Titanic issue though. For the benefit of our beloved readers:

From AC, August 1998, Quothe Spielberg:

"To me, widescreen formats like CinemaScope were a Hollywood invention of the 1950's. I find widescreen to be an artificial aspect ratio, whereas 1.85 more closely approximates the way the human eye really sees, in the sense that we seeas high to low as we do from side to side. If I hadto make a choice, I'd rather see from high to low. I think the most human perspective is [the range] from 1.66:1 to 1.85:1. The slickest format for theaters is 2.35:1. I've chosen 1.85:1 for my last four pictures because they were intended tobe more lifelike."

To each his own, I guess. But I wonder what he means by "slick." Personally, I prefer the look of anamorphic. I don't know what it is but I think it just looks better then super35- depth of field? I dunno. If you compare a couple of DVDs (I admit I bought one) like Mask of Zorro with Mystery Alska, thelatter just LOOKS cropped, and zorro doesn't. What is it exactly between spherical and anamorphic that results in such a different look?

I hadn't heard of the 1.5x squeeze before, and what a fantastic idea! That ain't gonna happen, but why not the trailer format? There isn't a single change that would be needed.

Thanks all-

Brett


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Christos Mitsakis
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 242
From: Ag.Paraskevi, ATHENS, GREECE
Registered: Sep 1999


 - posted 06-25-2000 03:43 AM      Profile for Christos Mitsakis   Email Christos Mitsakis   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Brett

The term "depth of field" has nothing to do with screen dimensions. It is related with the focal distance of a certain lens. If you are involved somehow with photography it is easy to understand. By closing the aperture (less light passes through the lens) more area behind - and front from the subject is in focus. On the contrary by opening the aperture only the subject remains sharp and the rest is out of focus.
An anamorphic lens uses many elements (spherical plus anamorphic - cylidrical- adapter), so the light passing through it
is less than a standard lens. Considering this you have to open the aperture (more area out of focus) or put more and stronger light sources to have the same results with a flat lens.

C.

The Titanic issue of American Cinematographer is Vol.78 No 12, december 1997.


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John Wilson
Film God

Posts: 5438
From: Sydney, Australia.
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 06-25-2000 04:00 AM      Profile for John Wilson   Email John Wilson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
So it seems Steven Spielberg's 'little' films will continue to be 1.85:1. At least he's consistant, I guess.

Indiana Jones 4 will be in scope though, thank goodness...can you imagine a 1.85:1 Indy? AAAARRRRRRRRRGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHH.....!

Phew!

------------------
"I could never be a woman. I'd just sit at home and play with my breasts all day."

Steve Martin - L.A. Story


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Dave Bird
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 777
From: Perth, Ontario, Canada
Registered: Jun 2000


 - posted 06-25-2000 08:11 AM      Profile for Dave Bird   Author's Homepage   Email Dave Bird   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Of course it's up to him, but isn't Spielberg missing the point here? I don't know if the human eye sees 1.85:1 (I rather think it's more with peripheral vision). I suppose most of you know before hand or see in trade screenings if a film is going to be scope or flat. But as a fan, I know when the show starts - AND IT'S SCOPE - I always think wow, this is a REAL movie. I just can't imagine any of those great westerns (or of course John - INDY) in flat. The point of movies to me, is they're better than TV. A scope movie always looks better, or at least has that WOW appeal. Don't they know they're only hurting themselves? Let's bring on the wide-screen, 48 fps format and keep using film for the next century. No?

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Christopher Seo
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 530
From: Los Angeles, CA
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 06-25-2000 01:36 PM      Profile for Christopher Seo   Email Christopher Seo   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Well.... Books on film theory go into how different aspect ratios make for different ways of composing a shot. It's easy to have an intimate two-person shot (top of head to neck) in 1.33 or 1.66, but 2.35? There's going to be a lot of empty space on both sides. Do these finer points really make a difference in how the movie is perceived? Maybe. In any case, some movies aren't epics designed to have your entire field of vision awash in imagery, but still deserve to be seen on something bigger than a TV screen. It's just too bad that filmmakers can't have a free range of choices for aspect ratios without sacrificing image quality.

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