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Author Topic: World Expo 2000 - Digital Pictures ?
Stefan Scholz
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 223
From: Schoenberg, Germany
Registered: Sep 1999


 - posted 05-09-2000 12:09 PM      Profile for Stefan Scholz   Author's Homepage   Email Stefan Scholz   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
As some may know, there's some kind of Expo 2000 thing going in Hanover, Germany.
I have recently learnt the following:
After having spent millions of dollars on the latest High Def DV gear, and still not getting the desired impact, the operators of the German pavillion finally tried good old 35 mm film. Of course use of latest Kodak print stock, and excellent negatives.
It was found out, that only film was able to give the desired results on screen.
Only problem, to show continuously, 6 mins. of film, 2 mins. intermission, 16 hrs a day.
A large company with their recent E- lectronic projector and rewind through the gate (R&R), failed due to the fact, that they could only archieve 50% windback speed, resulting in 3 mins of intermission.

The final installer now uses Bauer B14 / B11 mechanisms from 1958, resprayed to disguise the 50's style hammerstroke green paint.
The films runs in endless loop cabinets, protected from dust and windback wear.

The results are extremely satisfying, exceeding the DV "projection" by many times.

So much for technology on the future "Expo", and film does have a future

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 05-09-2000 01:19 PM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Stefan:

Please clarify, as I think you are actually comparing three ways of showing the images:

1. "Latest High Def DV Gear".
2. Electronic pulldown projectors and rewind through the gate (R&R), which took too long to rewind.
3. 1958-vintage Bauer projectors with prints in endless loop cabinets.

Do you have any details on the equipment used for the Digital Video display? How the images were shot, recorded, played back and projected? What size screen?

Many theme parks and "special venue" sites prefer to use loop cabinets for repeatedly showing films of the length you describe. We have heard cases where ESTAR print loops are run tens of thousands of times with negligible wear, dirt buildup or fading. Well-designed film loop projection systems typically produce much less wear on the print than rapid rewind systems. By my calculations, those prints will be shown 120 times each day!

Have you been lucky enough to see the comparisons first hand?

Glad to hear the film "results are extremely satisfying, exceeding the DV "projection" by many times."

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com


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Scott Norwood
Film God

Posts: 8146
From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas)
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 05-09-2000 01:38 PM      Profile for Scott Norwood   Author's Homepage   Email Scott Norwood   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Did you really mean "DV"? "DV" != "electronic projection" != "HDTV"

Remember that "DV" (the format) is a mid-range consumer format that's intended for people who want to shoot video footage of birthday parties and the like. Due to compression, it looks worse than Betacam SP, which is the de facto standard for TV news and other broadcast material that needs to be photographed with lightweight equipment. This is all still NTSC (or PAL) TV equipment. Projection of electronic images can be made to look much better than any NTSC tape format (particularly one with an obnoxiously high rate of lossy data compression) can ever hope to look.

Don't misunderstand--I love film as much as anyone here, but if we're going to complain when poor-quality film is compared to top-quality DLP projection, then we should not support the comparison of top-quality film to poor-quality video projection. Especially since we all know that film will look better!

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 05-09-2000 01:59 PM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Scott:

Stefan did write "latest High Def DV Gear", costing "millions of dollars", so I assume he means something better than high-end consumer video. That's why I asked for clarification.

AFAIK, 1280X1024 pixel (SXGA) DLP projectors are available from several vendors, but there are only about two dozen prototype 1280X1024 "DLP-Cinema" grade projectors in the world, and they are being used for the TI/Disney test sites and other promotional efforts. Be interesting to know what was tested at the World Expo in Hannover, and what the screen size/format was.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com


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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 05-09-2000 04:42 PM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Stefan,
They still do not have the best that there is. They need to have a Technicolor Dye Transfer Print made!
I get what you are saying though....that DV projection still can not come close to film. That is a long way off indeed but still headed that direction unfortunately.
Mark

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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99


 - posted 05-09-2000 06:28 PM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
Loop cabinets are fantastic (I cannot stand rewinding through the projector), but be careful if your location makes it a habit to pull the film out of the cabinet once a week for hand cleaning. I went to a 70mm Iwerks booth last year because they had gone through 3 prints in a row and were laying down a nasty colored scratch in the middle of the picture and everyone was stumped as to where it was coming from. Turned out that as the film went underneath the lamphouse there was a roller that had slipped just a touch and it's mounting bolt was scraping on the emulsion side of the film...right down the center. Had I not laid down on the floor as if I was going to work on a car, I would've never seen it.

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Stefan Scholz
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 223
From: Schoenberg, Germany
Registered: Sep 1999


 - posted 05-10-2000 01:04 PM      Profile for Stefan Scholz   Author's Homepage   Email Stefan Scholz   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
It was many types of commercial digital systems they tried, but I do not know the exact reason why the officials finally choose film - I just liked the decision, and the funny fact, that within a "show for the next millenium" 1958 equipment finally made the race.
I like film, but I am aware, that digital will come in a currently known, or currently unknown/ undeveloped format. I cannot stop it.
From a film handlers point, I always hated to make up films and break them down.
I have loved to show film with 2000 ft changeover.

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Joe Redifer
You need a beating today

Posts: 12859
From: Denver, Colorado
Registered: May 99


 - posted 05-10-2000 04:27 PM      Profile for Joe Redifer   Author's Homepage   Email Joe Redifer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Scott-

Hmmmm. My DV footage certainly looks as good if not a little better than Betacam SP. You see, I use a Canon XL1 to aquire my footage. It all depends on the camera. If you are using one of those wimpy hand held jobs, then yes, you're not going to get much better than Hi8 there, and some Hi8 cameras would even exceed that!

I like DV. I wouldn't project it to a 50 foot screen, but for video, it is quite awesome. In fact, it is better than whatever digital video format they are using down at the TV station for their newscasts. If you look at the sports section and any footage of a baseball field, all of the greens get all yucky and detail is nowhere to be found when the camera moves. Thank goodness DV compresses each frame individually, unlike crappy MPEG and MPEG-2 (DVD). In fact, I don't notice any compression artifacts on DV, unless I recompress it several times (but why would I do that?) Compression is only 5:1, and it does a great job.


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Scott Norwood
Film God

Posts: 8146
From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas)
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 05-10-2000 07:39 PM      Profile for Scott Norwood   Author's Homepage   Email Scott Norwood   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
At the risk of turning "film-tech" into "tv-tech", I'm going to disagree with Joe here. Yes, DV often looks "sharper" than Beta SP, but it really pales with things like shadow detail and (especially) highlight detail. And, of course, the compression artifacts (to which I am admittedly oversensitive) drive me nuts in any scene that has trees blowing in the wind in the background and whatnot.

Digital Betacam is much better in the compression area, but still has the highlight/shadow detail issue. When watching "Buena Vista Social Club" (DV and Digital Betacam transferred to 35mm film), I could easily pick out which scenes were shot on which format by looking for the compression artifacts.

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Randy Stankey
Film God

Posts: 6539
From: Erie, Pennsylvania
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 05-10-2000 10:07 PM      Profile for Randy Stankey   Email Randy Stankey   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
You know, for all the money they spent on digital, they probably could have gotten a really good projector with a good platter or loop cabinet then made multiple copies of their presentation and spliced them all together and still had money left over.

Heck, you could even do it on a platter, put three to four hours of film on it and only have to come back and thread it when it ends. The automation will do the rest.

Yeah, film is expensive but they probably have sponsors and junk like that. I'm not certain but I'm sure they could at least do it for a comparable cost.

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Joe Redifer
You need a beating today

Posts: 12859
From: Denver, Colorado
Registered: May 99


 - posted 05-10-2000 11:34 PM      Profile for Joe Redifer   Author's Homepage   Email Joe Redifer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Interesting. Usually the quicker the picture moves, the more compression artifacts you'll see. I have video (DV) of trees blowing and what not, and I cannot see any artifacts. I don't think it would look very good transferred to film, though.

DVD must drive you nuts with all of its shortcomings (and it has a TON of shortcomings). Please tell me that DVD bothers you as well. If it doesn't, then something is definitely backwards.

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Chris Wootten
Film Handler

Posts: 50
From: Moonlit Cinema, RAAF Tindal, N.T. Australia
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 05-11-2000 05:10 AM      Profile for Chris Wootten   Email Chris Wootten   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Stefan...... The technology here in OZ is behind the rest of the world, but from what I have seen so far, I reckon a lot more work will have to be done till you get the "on-screen" quality of film.
Yes I enjoy the 2000' reels too, especially as here we have short runs of movies....one weekend only....and I enjoy the challenge of the "change-over"...
Long live the FILM industry......

------------------
"I luv the smell of napalm in tha mornin !"

Keep Smiling......Chris


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Scott Norwood
Film God

Posts: 8146
From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas)
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 05-11-2000 06:08 AM      Profile for Scott Norwood   Author's Homepage   Email Scott Norwood   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Yes, DVD bothers me, too, but some discs are better than others. I don't have a player yet, but I've seen some in-store demonstrations that were practically unwatchable and I've seen some discs that actually looked good--even better than 1" tape. A lot of this probably depends on how much effort and skill is put into the compression/"authoring" process.

Still, though, DVD and DV both kick the butt of VHS and 3/4" tape.

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