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Author Topic: Archive Projection Equipment Advice Sought
Frank Wylie
Film Handler

Posts: 11
From: Dayton, Ohio, USA
Registered: Mar 2000


 - posted 04-16-2000 11:39 AM      Profile for Frank Wylie   Email Frank Wylie   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The Library of Congress is currently in the planning stages of building a new National Film Preservation Center in Culpepper, VA. and I am doing some research into projection systems for that facility.

First of all, I am at home without access to our equipment, so if my descriptions are somewhat vague, I’m sorry. I'm really a Timer/Grader with minimal projection experience, so I know the lab end far better than I know a booth. With that being said...

Our current projection equipment consists of a pair of Simplex XL’s (older black wrinkle finish) with matched soundheads setting on those gray Monee peds, and running a pair of Xenon-arc lamphouses (think they are fairly new Balentyne). We had a pair of Monee’s, but got rid of them (didn’t care for them) when a this pair of XL’s were donated to us.

The basic thrust of my inquiry is; Should we keep the old XL’s (in very good operational condition) and upgrade the soundheads, or has their really been that much of an advance in projection technology to warrant replacement? Couldn’t the heads just be reconditioned (to be sure of function) and the soundhead replaced?

Also, are the new LED soundhead assy. compatible with unilateral, bilateral, variable density and other type tracks?

Does anyone make a “turret-type” sound reader to deal with multiple-format soundtracks?

We will be requiring a set of projectors for both the main screening auditorium and the quality control/inspection projection room in the main laboratory.

Many thanks for any input. I will answer any addition questions that are required for clarification.

Thanks

------------------
Frank Wylie
Laboratory Supervisor
Library of Congress
Motion Picture Preservation Laboratory

All opinions expressed are my own and do not represent the official view of
the Library of Congress

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Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 04-16-2000 11:48 AM      Profile for Gordon McLeod   Email Gordon McLeod   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
If you are running archival prints get a pair of Kinoton machines.They are probably the most gentle projector ever made
The Led scanners can read all types of tracks but the Intermodualtion distorion is higher on silver based tracks

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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99


 - posted 04-16-2000 05:16 PM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
Yes, if you have the bucks Kinoton seems to be the choice (even though I've never had the pleasure of using one yet). If not, try and get Century projectors in there. They are not as rough on the film as a Simplex. After all, these are RARE prints and you need the most gentle projector you can find to take care of them.

(Before I get flamed on Simplexes, yes they do run forever, but my point is that Centurys are more "gentle" on the film.)

Perhaps some rig of exciter lamps switchable to a JaxLights by the operator would be best for the sound.

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Andy Davis
Film Handler

Posts: 49
From: Gainesville, FL
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 04-16-2000 06:03 PM      Profile for Andy Davis   Author's Homepage   Email Andy Davis   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Don't forget the Film-Guard!

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John Walsh
Film God

Posts: 2490
From: Connecticut, USA, Earth, Milky Way
Registered: Oct 1999


 - posted 04-16-2000 09:00 PM      Profile for John Walsh   Email John Walsh   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
If I had my way, I would get some used Norelco AA-II's. They are popular enough that (although expensive) parts are still avaiable, and someone will always find it worthwhile to make conversion kits for any future formats (sound or image.) For example, there are brackets which allow the interchange of different digital readers. Some day, those films will be old!

Any projectors used at the LoC are not going to be run everyday like a regular theater, so even a rebuilt AA-II shoud last a long time. But since the AA-II's are not made anymore, it would be very important to have them rebuilt only by someone who knows what they are doing.

Why I would suggest AA-II's:

If it were me, the order of importance would be careful handling of the print first, then image quality. Of course I would want it to look good, but the print can not be damaged.

The AA-II's have large sprockets to grip more of the film than many other projectors. This means film with damaged perforations are more likly to run through. Larger sprockets also mean lower (rotating) shaft speeds for a bit more safety. Although of minor importance, there are only three driving sprockets (rather then the four used in most American projector) for less wear. The soundhead is the "inertia-type" - the film is not run under tension while passing through the soundhead for (again) less wear.

The lens holder is the newer 4" dia. type, which can hold just about any motion picture lens ever used (remember those monster "Cinerama 70mm" lenses?)

The projector is the best of two time periods; the most modern type made that still was originally designed to run nitrate. (I would guess most of the LoC's prints are nitrate.) Several built-in safety features (some not found in brand-new projectors) could keep damage to a minimum. It was designed to run either emulsion in or out. ("In" was shown to be better for the print.) It can run 35/70mm, optical or mag striped prints at different frame rates, so the one projector could run several different release print formats. The image is so steady, the projector could almost be used as a reference tool.

If I could not get a AA-II's I would look at the Kineton's. But, while they are very fine projectors, I think the order of importance would be reversed, ie: they have good image quality first, good handling second. They are still better then almost any other projector, though.

Is this the new film preservation center being housed in the abandoned nuclear fallout shelter?

Not to be nosy, but can you give us a some idea of how much money is avaiable? Whenever the goverment is mentioned, people think there's tons of money avaiable- of course this is not always so. I will take a wild guess and say that one AA-II in "good to great" shape would cost about $17,000. Other people would know better then I, but just to give a ballpark. A new Kineton PK60D is about $8000 to $10,000 (projector only.)

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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99


 - posted 04-16-2000 09:35 PM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
If you go the AA2 route, just make damn sure the exciter shuts down when the motor stops or you will blister your film from it.

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 04-16-2000 10:28 PM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I disagree with the AA-2 idea. Sure its my favorite machine for theatrical...or home use, but you can't get those nifty LaVezzi VKF sprockets for them, and a film archive should try to use them where ever possible. They do make a big difference in preventing any possible film damage. They are also compatible with all film perfs except for the very obscure stuff. You can put em on most american made machines. I'll easily side with Brad on this issue. Get a nice clean pair of Centurys. They are far easier on film than X-L's. They are also far steadier on the average than an X-L is, and the gate is shorter for less film wear and friction.
I've used Century model C's and SA's on countless film jobs all over the country for location dailies projection. The nice thing about dailies is that you really get to put the machine to its limits as far as performance is concerned and they have continually amazed me. Centurys are easier to work on and keep in top shape too when need be plus you don't have all that oil mess to keep wiping up all over the floor.
Also at one time there were VKF sprockets available for the 35/70 JJ. Hey Brad, do you know if they are they still available.
Mark

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 04-16-2000 10:34 PM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
By the way Andy.......No Film-Guard would ever be allowed in a film archive. No one knows they very long term effects of it as of yet. Film-Guard is really an exhibition product to make your life easier.
Mark

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John Roach
Film Handler

Posts: 1
From: Cataula, GA
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 04-16-2000 10:43 PM      Profile for John Roach   Email John Roach   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
This has nothing to do with projection equipment, but I have heard that the library of congress will swap safety film copies of nitrate prints they don't have. My father ran a tent picture show, and I have several nitrate prints of westerns and 2 reel shorts he was using when he quit. The prints are in bad shape, of course. He used powers projectors, and used the prints until they were falling apart.
Anyway, I tried to contact the library of LoC in dayton, And got a form email. A real number or address would be appreciated.

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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99


 - posted 04-16-2000 11:04 PM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
I don't think the VKF sprockets are, but I've been proven wrong before and now would be a nice time for that if anyone out there knows of a place to get 'em.

I don't think most archives use ANYTHING in the way of film cleaning solutions on their prints, for even something that's been on the market for 20 years "could" start showing some form of damage. FilmGuard has been in testing for 10 years with 10 year old coated prints still perfect to this day, but for something like the Library of Congress, that's just not long enough.

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Ari Nordström
Master Film Handler

Posts: 283
From: Göteborg, Sweden
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 04-17-2000 02:12 AM      Profile for Ari Nordström   Email Ari Nordström   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I agree with the AA-II suggestion (this is the same projector as the Philips DP70, isn't it?), but would like to point out that whatever projector is chosen, it will have to be able to run anything from 16 fps and up to at least 30. The Philips DP70 only handles 24 and 30 unmodified.

If you use it for 16 fps, you will have to do something about the amount of light and heat from the lamphouse. The Swedish Film Institute's projection equipment includes a couple of rebuilt DP70s; they place a grid between the lamphouse and the gate when they run 16 or 18 and it works well, AFAIK.

The problem with the Kinotons that you either get a 35mm model (a very good one, but still only 35), or a 35/70 machine that is inferior in almost every respect to the AA-II; that is, the DP70, if my assumption is correct. Archive projection equipment should be able to handle 70mm prints.

If I'm wrong about the AA-II being the same machine as the DP70, then allow me to suggest the Philips DP70 instead.

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Pat Moore
Master Film Handler

Posts: 363

Registered: Mar 2000


 - posted 04-17-2000 04:20 AM      Profile for Pat Moore   Email Pat Moore   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Just a note of caution to all;
When you say "archival", is there any intention of running nitrate prints? None of the machines mentioned can do that. Better to keep the XL's and find the proper enclosed magazines if that's the case.
I would also disagree that the other projectors mentioned are so gentle on film. They are, but a properly set up XL is great with film and still shows a great image.
Another note: some archival prints might be foxhole sprockets -- VKF won't run them.

Pat

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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99


 - posted 04-17-2000 05:02 AM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
Pat, I've ran a theater that had a mix of XLs and JJs in the same booth. In EVERY case where we had two prints of the same title and one was in an XL house and one was in a JJ house, the JJ print did not shed and the XL print shed like mad. The XL print also had a visible mark of dirt where the sounddrum idler roller rested on the emulsion. Again, I repeat in every case, regardless of the actual machine. I also notice that theaters with all XL machines vs. a theater with all Century machines...the XL theater's prints are always significantly dirtier than the Century booth.

Now don't get me wrong, the XL is a damn fine machine...but the Century always outperforms it in regards to film handling. Of course, the XL is generally more reliable over time.

When will the Simplex's soundhead design be changed to eliminate this pressure roller on the emulsion side of the film as it runs over the sound drum? There really is no need for it. All it does is embedd dirt into the emulsion (conveniently enough right after it's heated up at the aperture). Get rid of that one flaw, and you'll have yourself a spectacular machine!

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 04-17-2000 07:05 AM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Pat,
I seem to remember that the VKF sprockets will run Fox Hole prints. LaVezzi designed this sprocket with all perfs in mind. As I remember,its the Positrol Sprockets that can't run Fox Hole. Even the old CS sprockets were too small for fox hole perfs. And yes, Century made tons of magazines for their machines, so nitrate is fine as long as you have them.
Mark

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 04-17-2000 07:15 AM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Mark:

Yes, the VKF will run fox hole perfs BUT not if they have shrunk in the slightest (ie archival films). Hence the VKF is not the best choice for this sort of venue. None of the LOC nor National Archives machines in the Washington DC area are running on VKFs at the moment. We do have film collectors with large inventories...the VKFs proved to not work with shrunken film.

Steve

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"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"

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