My feelings, and some of my experiences with the RCA machines(the basis for the present Westrex electronic projector) are listed below...........These are in no way ment to bash the electronic projector in general. They are a good thing but.........

The first thing to consider is that the average lifespan of an electronic projector will be in the area of 5 to 7 years....ok, we'll be generous and say 7 to 10 years. At this point the semiconductors will be very difficult, if not impossible for the manufacturer to obtain through normal chanels. And my experience dicatates that they will ONLY go through normal channels. A major reason for this is that the machinery is removed by the semi manufacturer and also upgraded to make newer, and better chips, etc. I have experienced that this is especially true of eproms, memory,and cpu's. This problem is very common in the Broadcast Industry, and in the Lighting Industry, not to mention the computer industry itself where techonology can outpace itself the very same day.
One of our customers for instance has dimmer racks made by the largest, oldest manufacturer in the world of this tyoe of equipment. They were purchased new in 1992, and the processor and control cards are no longer made and semis are now very scarce(only available surplus). 1992 is not that long ago folks! The three options here are to scare up the parts when they break down, upgrade the racks with new computers at a cost of 6500.00 per rack times 6 racks, or sell them new racks at just under 100K! That just does not cut it at a large University where these are located. Even they have budgets to go by for capital outlay.
Realistically, if you look at this picture, you will find that these machines will probably prove to be far more expensive than a standard machine running in the average theater application simply due to the fact that they won't last as long. Consider that the your normal Simplex theater projector lasts 25 years(with normal maintainance of course),and that after just 7 to say 10 years you will have the expense of getting a new electronic machine, or of hopefully being able to upgrade the electronic machine at what will probably be an exorbatant price.......if it can even be done. Most manufacturers would probably prefer to sell you a new machine than an upgrade.

My second worry is the rewinding through the film path scenerio. The worry here is if the something in the wind servo system should go amuck. I've actually seen this happen. Talk about film and machine damage.....no other film pile up compares to having this happen! It only takes about a second to destroy important film path parts, and film. Especially with polyestar film. Even well designed safety circuits may not be able to prevent this either, it can happen way to fast. Ever see a 1/2 horse servo motor go from crawl to full speed in one second? Film reels sing when they spin at 5000 rpm. Thats what happens.
At any rate I still don't feel that these are really practical theater type machines. Sure they work good now, but what about in 10 years? And they too will require the attention of a qualified tech if you can find one.
Mark

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On the subject of semiconductor availability or more directly, integrated circuit (I think of semiconductors as the more basic two leaded stuff) it is certainly true that they come and go.

Shortly after earning my BSEE degree, I decided to make a CP-50 upgrade board (Model 506T) to allow it to play digital sound formats (at the time DTS and Dolby dig) with either or both connected plus some other features. Well I went about making all the features I wanted. I found nice ICs to allow 4 6-channel inputs (Optical, DTS, Dolby Digital and Pink Noise). I breadboarded the important circuits, tested and improved things, CADed up the schematics and designed a PCB layout...and debugged all that. Made a proto PCB. Tested it out on a couple of vintages of CP-50s (There are three backplanes for the CP-50)...I think there were a couple of tweeks to do at that point but they were minor. Finally. Victory! It was green lighted for limited projection. So I made up my bill of materials and started placing orders with our vendors for the parts ....WHAM "Sorry but that chip (the one I was using for the audio switching) has just been discontinued and there is no direct replacement!" Now the whole process listed above took only a month or two. So yes it does indeed happen where things that were available, are no longer.

I learned a valuble lesson on that project. When you design something, you must look at what are the expectations of your intended market (i.e. longevity, in the film biz). If you are going to make a "one-off" then such things are not of much concern so long as it is reliable enough to make it through it's intended use. I mean, nothing lasts forever. But, when you are designing and making things for this industry, it is better to use a more stable (marketwise) technology over absolute performance.

In my case, I ended up using the DG409 analog mux to make the final version of the 506T. Why? It had adequate performance, acceptable price, and it could be sourced from several chip manufacturers (Siliconix, Harris and Maxim come to mind). It would take a big market shift to kill it off anytime soon.

What does this have to do with electronic projectors, or reel to reel? Well it is certainly possible for an electronic projector (like other electronic equipment) to be designed using single source chips and as such can become no longer available. But this isn't confined to electronic projectors, as my little story tells, even Dolby has run into this on their products (the Cat. 222 was replaced, partly due to chip obsolescence with the Cat. 222A). How negatively has this affected users of the Cat. 222? Not much and if they have a failure, the RX will be a 222A. They didn't have to scrap their CP-55s or pay huge upgrade costs. I feel the same can be true with electronic projectors.

If the designer of the projector is good, then controller board obsolecence shouldn't be the end of the world, one merely replaces it with a current version. One thing about such technology (single board computers and such) is that they seem to be able to do more and more with less real estate and as such lower/similar costs for both purchase and upgrades with more features should be possible.

The bottom line really comes down to how well the unit is designed rather than IC discontinuation.

Kinoton is NOT exactly new to either the projection or electronic projection industry. The FP-30/38EC has been out for years (over a decade yet, Larry?) and they hopefully wouldn't put their reputation in jeapordy over "quick and dirty" design.

Then again, if Digital Cinema has it's way, who will care 10 years from now, when what ever is in it, may or may not be gone.

Steve

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I think you missed the point of my post. (I think it might have been buried in there).

Sure it is possible that the Kinoton units are being designed with single source units but that isn't necessarily the case.
Kinoton is an old-timer in the projection industry. I wouldn't compare a theatrical lighting system to them. When designing a sophisticated lighting system, an engineer is apt to use an ASIC (application specific IC), and other single source IC for cost and speed reasons. If the unit gets past the warranty period, they have done their job. Heck, there are amplifier manufacturers that hord some of their output devices (for repairs) because they can't get them anymore.

I haven't found Kinoton to be pricey either. Their PK-60 series is cheaper than either Simplex or Century, similarly equipped. Furthermore, SR*D is only a $550 or so option over the standard reader...compare that to everyone else. If you are talking about parts for obsolete machines and other low-volume items, sure they are somewhat pricey but not prohibitively so. Again compared to other manufacturers, the parts are discontinued.

But putting all that aside, motor controller technology isn't exactly cutting edge and should not be facing obsolescense in a 10-year period, if anything, the cost of any repair boards should be less. Shoot the controllers for motors have never been cheaper (and smaller).

I think rasing a red flag on electronic projectors (especially from a company like Kinoton) is a little like pointing out that LaVezzi could stop making projection parts and put Century, Simplex and Christie (plus others) on the skids.

On servicing, have you seen the service manual for the Kinoton E machines? I find it easier to follow than some of these new-fangled computer automations.

I don't see E projectors any more of a concern than other equipment. They are all suseptable. Time will tell if your concerns are warranted.

Steve

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We can still get regular 7400 series DIP style IC's. Our buyer finds them in remote places, but does find them. Not big quanities, only 50-100 at a time. The last batch we got from a US air force base in Germany. We have to send them out to another place to clean the oxidation off of the leads before wave-soldering them.

On the other hand, right now there is a shortage of surface-mount tantiumn caps. They are out to 6 months delivery. Also, a company discontinued a surface-mount DS3 IC we use after only making it for 4 years. So now I have to design and make another PC board to take a new one.

I find that: you can get old stuff- it's new stuff that being discontinued after only a short time.