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Author Topic: House light cues...
John Wilson
Film God

Posts: 5438
From: Sydney, Australia.
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 02-25-2000 07:34 PM      Profile for John Wilson   Email John Wilson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I saw a movie the other night and the lights came up even before the credits had started to roll. That pis*es me off. What on earth could be the purpose of putting a cue so close to the end of the last frame? So the projectionist could use the last frame to make sure it was on the frame line?

Personally, I like to let the credits establish themselves first, then bring the lights up to a low preset. I have also on certain occasions, gone back and moved the cue if I find a better spot for the lights to come up after I've run it.

What's the general consensus here?

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Ian Price
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1714
From: Denver, CO
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 02-25-2000 07:53 PM      Profile for Ian Price   Email Ian Price   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I like the way you do it. I don't have a lights to mid on my dimmers. So I leave them in the dark untill the last credit has rolled. Then the lights (what few there are) come up. This is also the way we do it at the Telluride Film Festival.

I wish we did have a lights to mid feature. I worry about those little old ladies stumbling out of my theatre.

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John Wilson
Film God

Posts: 5438
From: Sydney, Australia.
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 02-25-2000 08:03 PM      Profile for John Wilson   Email John Wilson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
>>I worry about those little old ladies stumbling out of my theatre.<<

...especially if you're the one paying the insurance premiums.

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Greg Anderson
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 766
From: Ogden Valley, Utah
Registered: Nov 1999


 - posted 02-25-2000 08:06 PM      Profile for Greg Anderson   Author's Homepage   Email Greg Anderson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Personally, I like to read the credits... all of them! (Like those people who are attending the Telluride Film Festival, I know what all those jobs are and I can appreciate reading those names.) But I've come to expect people to turn on the lights and make it difficult for me to see them. I wish they wouldn't. I've been to theatres where the light cue causes the digital sound to drop into analog (and that really bites when the credits usually feature some of the best music in the movie).

What's worse, however, is when the lights are left up during the trailers. I really hate that!

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John Wilson
Film God

Posts: 5438
From: Sydney, Australia.
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 02-25-2000 08:12 PM      Profile for John Wilson   Email John Wilson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
We did it that way also at the Sydney Film Festival.

I enjoy the credits also and used to leave the lights down until the curtains touched. (Ahhh...curtains...)

Unfortunately, the insurance factor is an anwinnable argument when fighting for the cause with management.

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Stephen Jones
Master Film Handler

Posts: 314
From: Geelong Victoria Australia
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 02-25-2000 08:47 PM      Profile for Stephen Jones   Email Stephen Jones   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I do the same thing as you John,I also hate not being able to read the credits.The problem with the multiplex's is that they seem to enjoy stuffing up peoples enjoyment of going to the movies .They like to get em out quick and dont worry about those who like to read the credits.I have seen staff at one location where I once worked start cleaning in the dark before the lights come up to preset then while the credits are rolling (lights still out) get a call on the radio to bring the lights up full which reveals a lot of people whatching credits and staff rudely cleaning around patrons,this really bugs me.This seems to happen a lot with the major chains as they tend to jam the sessions in too close together.

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Greg Anderson
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 766
From: Ogden Valley, Utah
Registered: Nov 1999


 - posted 02-25-2000 10:27 PM      Profile for Greg Anderson   Author's Homepage   Email Greg Anderson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
When I was in college, I worked at the single-screen theatre on campus. We had some automation features (platters, lens changing mechanism, etc.) but we had no automation for the lights. I was always happy to have full control of that.

To appease those who wanted to walk in during the trailers or walk out during the credits, I would raise the aisle lights to full intensity. We had strings of lights running down each edge of the carpet down each aisle and they could be quite bright with minimal effects on the screen. And everyone could see where their feet were! It was a perfect compromise. Either automation cannot handle a separate circuit for aisle lights or everyone's lazy, but I've never seen a house lighting system as nifty as the one I was operating manually at that theatre.

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Erika Hellgren
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 168
From: Denver, Colorado
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 02-26-2000 12:40 AM      Profile for Erika Hellgren   Email Erika Hellgren   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
We have stadium seating at our theatre, so having the lights at mid during the trailers and credits is a pretty good idea. We had a guy try to sue us when he fell or tripped in our theatre when he was trying to leave at the end of the movie and the house lights weren't up yet (thanx to a former projectionist of ours).
The lights at mid in the auditoriums don't seem to interfere too much with what's going on onscreen - it's just enough light for people to find their seat, or their way out. And I agree that no one should feel rushed out at the end of the movie - I get very upset if ushers even enter a theatre before all the patrons are out.
I like to place my lights mid cue in a way that makes it look like it is part of the movie, as opposed to a consequence of that particular theatre's policy. I find that if I put it immediately in front of the first credit, the timing works out great (with our automation anyway, your results may differ). That way a few seconds of the credits play in darkness.

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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99


 - posted 02-26-2000 12:59 AM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
On large auditoriums that have 2 or more dimmers, I like to go in and preset them differently so that when the trailers start, all of the lights up front by the screen extinguish completely, the lights over the center mass of seating dims "almost" out and the side rows of lights by the side walls stay more towards "up". This makes a nice blend. When the feature starts, ALL lights go out completely.

In theaters which have only one dimmer pack I prefer to at least go in and slow the dim rate a bit to make things more smooth. Half lights during the trailers and credits are a MUST for stadium seating theaters and insurance purposes.

There is nothing more annoying to me than ceiling lights that do not extinguish all the way, as I wear glasses and the lights can reflect on my lenses which is an incredible distraction. I also cannot stand wall lights that are placed too close to the screen so that they wash out the sides of the image. Those lights should be removed completely.

Ushers in my opinion should not even be allowed into the theater until the rating tag is over!

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Joe Redifer
You need a beating today

Posts: 12859
From: Denver, Colorado
Registered: May 99


 - posted 02-26-2000 03:41 AM      Profile for Joe Redifer   Author's Homepage   Email Joe Redifer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
My theatre used to have wall sconces in every single auditorium that could not dim completely because of the way they were wired to the dimmers. I bitched and moaned to the techs who wired them. I then realized that I was on my own. I had to completely rewire and pull some relays out of the dimmers, and rewire a half of the automations (for the small houses with only one dimmer), but now every single light goes out completely like they should, and they come up when they should as well. The response from the techs when they found out what I did: "Gee, we'll have to remember that when we install our next booth."

As for the lights to mid cue, I like to put mine after the director's name if that is the first credit. It works best when the director's name appears stationary, fades away, and then the rest of the credits start to roll. Slow fading of lights is a MUST. When they come up too quick, it literally jolts you back into reality instead of bringing you back softly and peacefully. Same with the lights fading out. If they fade too quickly, you don't experience the anticipation of seeing a cool movie.

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Randy Stankey
Film God

Posts: 6539
From: Erie, Pennsylvania
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 02-27-2000 01:18 AM      Profile for Randy Stankey   Email Randy Stankey   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
If I had my choice I'd leave the lights down until the end. Problem is that other people don't see it that way. (Late-commers, insurance, people leaving early, etc.) When you're in the customer service business, you HAVE to do the things your customers like. If customers want it light (or dark), do it! They pay the bills.

Our automation uses a Center cue (Proximity) for lights up to 1/2. I HATE that! You can see it on the screen! I spend a lot of time trying to figure out how to hide it. Here's what I've discovered:

1) If the end of the movie "hard cuts" to black, that's easy. The sudden darkness makes it very hard to notice if you make the cue small. Just put it on the first frame line after the "cut".

2) If the film is hard matte in FLAT, make the cues small enough to fit in the black space between frames. If your automation needs a sustained pulse put 3 or 4 of them right in a row. (Provided your automation doesn't interpret that as something else. -- My failsafe/detector (FM-35) interprets any string of cues that are less than 5 frames apart as if it were one long cue.)

3) If it's "Credits-over-picture" (I HATE that!) put your cue sideways along the frame line. If you think your fs/det will miss that, stack them as above.

As far as I know, most proximity sensors are capable of operating in the KHz range with a delay of =< 1 milisecond between pulses. A piece of 5/16 foil tape moving at 18 inches/sec is well within that range. The limiting factor is, "Can your automation pick up the pulse?"

...Opinions?

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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99


 - posted 02-27-2000 02:33 AM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
Randy,

SWAP THE WIRES! That's it. Just swap the wires coming from the cue detector into the automation.

This way you can use an outboard to lower the lights/pulse into digital and an inboard to raise the lights at the end credits and save that obtrusive center cue for shutdown in the end credits.

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 02-28-2000 07:34 AM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
My personal opinion is that slowly bringing up the house lights to a "dim" position during the closing credits is acceptable, and usually a good idea for safety reasons, as many people get up to leave as the credits roll. I always honor the artists that worked on the film by staying for all the credits --- I also like finding the names of people I know. If possible, be sure the ceiling lights are not aimed at the screen, so the image is not washed out by bringing up the lights part way. Never deliberately bring up lights that flood the screen while film is still being projected.

I discussed "contrast killers" in the article I wrote for the December 1999 issue of "Film Notes for Reel People":
http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/newsletters/reel/december99/pytlak.shtml

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Professional Motion Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com

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Scott Norwood
Film God

Posts: 8146
From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas)
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 02-28-2000 08:12 AM      Profile for Scott Norwood   Author's Homepage   Email Scott Norwood   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
My fairly strong opinion is that the lights should stay down until the credits have ended and the curtains are closed. That said, the safety/insurance consideration is important.

Depending on the film, I'd generally bring up the lights in the rear of the auditorium to about 80% and the main house lights/chandelier to about 20% or 30% during the credits of most films. Certain films (like "Ferris Bueller" and others where people sit through the credits) got the "house lights down" treatment. Same for older films that had a simple "The End" title.

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Bill Purdy
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 139
From: Seattle, WA
Registered: Oct 1999


 - posted 02-28-2000 11:04 AM      Profile for Bill Purdy   Author's Homepage   Email Bill Purdy   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
This is a suggestion to Randy regarding his FM-35. You should be able to read a cue that is on the order of 3/16" wide. When these things are made they are individually adjusted on a jig which exposes them to "Go", "No-go" cues and they are expected to respond to the 3/16 cue. This is to assure that they will for sure fire with the usual 7/32" or 1/4" tape. Component ageing and temperature will have some slight affect. This is just the response time of the sensor. The pulses are then stretched to around 1/3 second, and you are correct, multiple cues will re-set the stretcher. For more on this you can check:
http://www.componentengineering.com/webdocs/fm-3537instr.pdf

If you really want to get rid of that center cue you might consider our QX-10 accessory. This decodes binarily the various combinations of the three cues into seven outputs. You could then use a number "5" cue (an outboard plus an inboard) an have nothing in the center. Please note, however, that this circuit works differently than the FM-35 by itself and you would lose the ability to stretch our the cues by multiple applications. If this is a major problem, we could easily modify the time constants in the QX-10. There is more on this at:
http://www.componentengineering.com/webdocs/qx10instructions.pdf

------------------
Bill Purdy
Comonent Engineering

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