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» Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE   » Operations   » Film Handlers' Forum   » Has anyone actually HEARD an HPS-4000 theater? (Page 1)

 
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Author Topic: Has anyone actually HEARD an HPS-4000 theater?
Joe Redifer
You need a beating today

Posts: 12859
From: Denver, Colorado
Registered: May 99


 - posted 01-31-2000 01:38 AM      Profile for Joe Redifer   Author's Homepage   Email Joe Redifer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
So, I see the ads in the magazines about how HPS-4000 is the most powerful system and how it is the first to bring digital sound to the cinema and so forth and so on. My question is, if these HPS-4000 theaters are so wonderful, where are they? I believe that we had one here in Colorado at one time, the Cooper 7, but it went out of business. It never really was a busy theatre. Also, how does the sound compare to THX systems?

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Brad Miller
Administrator

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From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99


 - posted 01-31-2000 01:57 AM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
That is John F. Allen's system. I think there's probably a couple of dozen, but I'm really not sure. He's got a web site now that gives plenty of information www.hps4000.com

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Ian Price
Phenomenal Film Handler

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From: Denver, CO
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 01-31-2000 02:18 AM      Profile for Ian Price   Email Ian Price   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Joe,

Wasn't the Cooper 7's (in Denver) big house a HPS-4000 theatre? Did you see a film there?

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John F. Allen
Film Handler

Posts: 54
From: Newton, MA
Registered: Nov 1999


 - posted 01-31-2000 03:54 AM      Profile for John F. Allen   Email John F. Allen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Dear Mr. Redifer:

I regret that you have not had the opportunity to hear an HPS-4000® system for yourself. I am sure you would be impressed as most are. It is indeed the most powerful system on the market today. While any system could equal the acoustic power of an HPS-4000® system, we are the only company that ensures that every installation has at least four times the output required for the loudest peaks of a digital soundtrack. This specification is met in every channel, including the subwoofer. The HPS-4000® reference system in Framingham has an acoustic output equivalent to nearly 13 symphony orchestras. The Waikiki Theatres 1 and 2 are currently the largest with an output of 14 1/2 symphony orchestras. The largest ever built was equal to 20. Motion picture soundtracks require this kind of power if they are to be heard without strain or distortion. Another benefit is reliability. In the 20 years since their introduction, no HPS-4000® sound system has experienced a driver failure.

Four times the power may seem like a lot, but it's only 6 dB -- or about the difference in raising your voice. It's really about the least amount of headroom one can get away with, particularly if one is designing a sound system with equalization.

As to the "couple of dozen" installations: I wonder when I hear this (this is not the first time) if those couple of dozen include the 60 plus systems in Hawaii or the over 70 systems in Illinois? I actually do not keep track of all the installations. For instance, when a circuit is sold and the new management is not interested in quality sound, I loose track of the systems involved when I know they are no longer properly maintained and have no hope of ever sounding the way they should.

As to how our sound systems compare, you should read what customers and others have written at: http://www.hps4000.com/pages/comments_.html

I hope you get a chance to hear one someday. If you are ever in Boston, let me know.

John F. Allen


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Joe Redifer
You need a beating today

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From: Denver, Colorado
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 - posted 01-31-2000 04:50 AM      Profile for Joe Redifer   Author's Homepage   Email Joe Redifer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Sounds interesting, John. I think Ian is right. I remember the UA technician telling me that the Cooper 7 in Denver was HPS-4000® certified. This was back when I worked for UA. Have you ever certified a theatre in Colorado, John? That would have been it.

I have seen movies there. I remember seeing True Lies and Courage Under Fire, both in DTS, as well as Alien 3 a few years prior. I did not know that I was in an HPS4000® (can't forget that "®") theatre at the time. I wasn't impressed. But I don't know if it was properly maintained or not by our tech. He seemed to like the house, so I assume he put some TLC into it. Too bad the theatre only did 40 people per day. The all THX Mann 12-plex a couple of blocks away stole (or earned) the customers it once had.

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John F. Allen
Film Handler

Posts: 54
From: Newton, MA
Registered: Nov 1999


 - posted 01-31-2000 05:29 AM      Profile for John F. Allen   Email John F. Allen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Dear Mr. Redifer

As I remember, the theatre I did was called the Cooper 7. I believe it was in Littleton, but I'm not sure. It was many years ago. The theatre was round. It was the first time I used my surround array formulas developed for a round room. Coverage was ± 3/4 dB. Not too bad.

The system sounded great. The round room was not a problem for us due to the superior coverage patterns of our speaker systems. We opened with a 70 MM print of GHOSTBUSTERS.

Ultimately, the theatre was sold and the system was replaced. As I said, when theatres get sold and the new owners don't care about quality sound or don't know what they have, I typically loose track of what happens. I understand that the system that was installed after that was, at best, about 1/8 the acoustic power -- hardly enough for 70 MM or digital.

At any rate, if you heard the system I installed, it would have had to be before 1985, I would think. Even then I can't be sure if what you heard was what you should have. The theatre did not remain on the active list very long. Is the theatre still open?

John F. Allen

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Ben Wales
Jedi Master Film Handler

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From: Southampton. England
Registered: Jul 99


 - posted 01-31-2000 07:24 AM      Profile for Ben Wales   Email Ben Wales   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The Cinema Complex named SkyScape has a 50kv watt system, the biggest I come across so far.
The main speakers are JBL HLA,C-Audio amps and Sound Web Audio processors, not ideal for film sound, I think they call it OTT 5000 system!

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Scott Norwood
Film God

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From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas)
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 01-31-2000 08:16 AM      Profile for Scott Norwood   Author's Homepage   Email Scott Norwood   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Is GCC still putting in HPS-4000 systems? There are a couple of them in the Boston area--the GCC houses in Burlington and Framingham (and, I think, Braintree) all have at least one HPS-4000-equipped auditorium.

My hometown (Wellesley, Mass.) was the site of one of the first HPS-4000 theatres (the Community Playhouse), which, sadly, is now a shopping center.

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Brad Miller
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From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99


 - posted 01-31-2000 11:29 AM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
My apologies John. In this part of the country, HPS systems are non-existent. I'd like to know how many there really are out there though (installations which have since been "decertified" due to lack of maintenance I would not count). Is the count of 130 screens in Hawaii and Illinois actively certified, or installations that were done at one point?

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John F. Allen
Film Handler

Posts: 54
From: Newton, MA
Registered: Nov 1999


 - posted 01-31-2000 11:55 AM      Profile for John F. Allen   Email John F. Allen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Dear Brad:

The theatres in Hawaii and Illinois are fully functional and very well maintained installations, I am happy to say. In fact, the technicians who maintain those particular theatres are among the best around. I actually get to visit the Illinois theatres at least once a year, because the owner wants me to personally check things out for myself. In Hawaii, I get to see some of those theatres when I am there: typically once a year or so.

There have been somewhere between 250 and 300 installations over the years. The fact that I can only recommend about 1/3 rd as being properly maintained is sad. But as things go, 1/3 rd is better than some others might claim. I am certainly not alone in wishing things were better.

John F. Allen

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Joe Redifer
You need a beating today

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From: Denver, Colorado
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 - posted 01-31-2000 06:37 PM      Profile for Joe Redifer   Author's Homepage   Email Joe Redifer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I have what I think is an interesting question: Are HPS-4000 systems supposedly uniform in their sound (more or less) from certified auditorium to certified auditorium (assuming that maitenence is kept up, etc...)?

THX boasts that every auditorium meets the standards of the screening room the films were mixed in. That way if you see a film in a THX certified auditorium, you are listening to the film EXACTLY as the director intended it to be heard. Personally, I have found that each and every THX house sounds completely different. I have heard some new installations that sound like pure crap, and some new installations that sound absolutely fantastic! All calibrations are performed by "professional" THX techs. In fact, some of my non-THX houses sound noticably better than my THX houses. Of course, they are all built to the same standards during construction, it's just that they do not have the "official" THX liscence.

So my question is if I went to an HPS-4000 house and watched a movie and noticed certain characteristics in the sound, would I be able to go to a different HPS-4000 house 5 states away in a much smaller auditorium, watch the very same movie and have, more or less, the same sound?

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John F. Allen
Film Handler

Posts: 54
From: Newton, MA
Registered: Nov 1999


 - posted 01-31-2000 07:15 PM      Profile for John F. Allen   Email John F. Allen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Dear Mr. Redifer:

I wish there was a prize for you. You are the very first person in 20 years to ask that question. The answer is yes. It's very important to me and something I have had to work very hard to do. Early on, I realized that the tuning and measuring systems recommended for cinema sound systems did not work. Not only did they result in inferior sound quality, but they almost never provided similar tone from theatre to theatre. What's more, the measurement system was not repeatable.

The best example of the problem can be found at the Century Plaza Theatre in Los Angeles. There are two sets of EQ cards in the large HPS-4000® theatre. One is the set I adjusted when the system was first installed. Those settings have never been changed. The other set is there because technicians cannot leave well enough alone. In the 16 years since the system was first installed, those secondary EQ cards have never been set the same way twice. Furthermore, never have they been set in a way that even approaches the sound quality available by simply using the house cards that I originally adjusted.

Because of this problem, and the fact that there is no measurement system that measures what something sounds like, I personally set up every HPS-4000® system. Generally they are well maintained. Generally the equalization is not changed. If it is, the sound system is no longer HPS-4000®.

We have four levels of HPS-4000® sound systems. The bigger ones sound bigger than the smallest. The bigger theatres also sound bigger than the smaller ones. That obvious caveat being said, the tone is remarkably similar in all HPS-4000® theatres. I know this because I hear every one, I listen to the same reference materials and make sure they sound natural. Today, we have newer and better amplifiers. This has resulted in even cleaner sound quality -- really remarkable.

Natural tone is, for me, one of the most important aspects of sound system performance. A sound system must sound natural. It comes from the adage that the best sound system is no sound system. If that is so, then the next best thing is a sound system that doesn't sound like a sound system. When I worked for the Boston Symphony and later was sound director for the Boston Ballet, we often were asked by the musicians and conductors who came out to listen, "Is it on?"

John F. Allen

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Gordon McLeod
Film God

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From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 01-31-2000 09:20 PM      Profile for Gordon McLeod   Email Gordon McLeod   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I question how can they all sound the same when according to your article equalization is done in the near field and mainly to the centre channel and then the cards are swapped? The fact that no two theatres even with the same room volume will have identical reverberation time constants I find it hard to believe that near field measurements are the best. Far field equalization is based on the premise that in a large room we hear the far field sound as well as the direct sound.The near field measurements would be acurate for bust based sounds that the secondary reflections would not add to but sustained sound the rooms additive effects will colour it (a sustained violin note for instance)
I do agree most systems are under powered with poor headroom but I have experienced very few driver failures in systems we have designed except through absolute negligance (usually after staff parties) or in one case during a SDDS Spazz attack when the DFP3000 decided to reset its preset to +10 and +10 on all eq bands. That theatre only lost one highfrequency driver. So I do feel that systems with adequate headroom are not proprietary to HPS-4000 systems but just the mark of sound engineering.
Does HPS-4000 have criteria for room noise curves and reverberation and adjacent room noise transferrence?

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Jon Bartow
Master Film Handler

Posts: 287
From: Massachusetts
Registered: Nov 1999


 - posted 01-31-2000 09:37 PM      Profile for Jon Bartow   Email Jon Bartow   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
John,
Are there any HPS-4000 theaters in New England (Boston Area perhaps?). I would very much like to hear one of your systems.
Although none of the systems in any of the theaters that I service could be classified "overpowered" I did manage to blow three JBL Horns at the same time. While replacing a fuse on the back of a CD player in a sound rack I accidentally unplugged the DA20. (System had CP65, DA20, Crown amps) For some strange reason that no one at either Dolby or JBL was able to explain, the system produced a tone somewhere in the 5khz range. Only at 100db+ The drivers for all three horns were melted open. 34,000 ohm resistance. Lost the house for a week while we waited for replacements. Oh well sh** happens

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Brad Miller
Administrator

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From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99


 - posted 01-31-2000 09:37 PM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
Personally I'll stand behind Gordon's comments above. No two theaters will sound the same, period. Even if there are two EXACTLY alike auditoriums in the same complex in every way and their CP-500 or SDDS settings were copied into the other processor/player, they will still not sound the same.

Am I wrong when I say what I think you were trying to convey was that since you are the only sound tech for HPS installations that there is more consistency from auditorium to auditorium in comparison to THX, since there are so many licensed THX techs?

Also, might I recommend you start an area on your site with a complete and current "licensed" HPS theaters list? By this I mean if something is altered (eq settings, levels, etc), then that theater would be removed from the web list. I think it would serve people better who are interested in hearing a demo without flying to the Framingham theater, Illinois or Hawaii.


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