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Author Topic: Damaged 70mm that pisses me off
Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 01-21-2000 02:54 PM      Profile for Gordon McLeod   Email Gordon McLeod   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Today we started a run of Lawrence of Arabia
in 70mm at the cinesphere We were told the print hadn't been out of the exchange since we last showed it 2 yers ago. Well all the heads and tails had been removed and put back on with single sided white tape. ( this print had only showed on reels before) and had a continous black scratchs through out and the overture to the second part had a track errasure. This is one of those things that just pisses me off In the past this was one of those films that showcases our large image (82') and excellent sound DOLBY SR on 6 track mag

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John Walsh
Film God

Posts: 2490
From: Connecticut, USA, Earth, Milky Way
Registered: Oct 1999


 - posted 01-21-2000 03:58 PM      Profile for John Walsh   Email John Walsh   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
That's a drag about the scratching. I don't know what can be done about cutting off the heads and tails if a 70mm print is to be run on a platter. Is it practical to not allow heads and tails to be cut off of a 70mm print in todays theater business?

Very few places ever had 70mm equipment, even fewer actually used it- especially today. That, and the poor pay for most projection positions means older guys are not replaced and younger people don't go into it. Knowledge is not passed on and dies. It's getting harder to find even experinced 35mm operators- never mind 70mm. It's becomming like ice harvesting; a lost profession.

That's what probably happened to that print of LoA.

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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99


 - posted 01-21-2000 04:21 PM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
I can understand the complaint on scratching and erasure, but cutting heads and tails off has nothing to do with that. It sounds as if you are trying to blame this on the platter and/or trying to get another platter vs. changeover thread going here. As has been discussed in the past, the majority of everyone here agrees a single sided splice is in the best interest of the film. It allows the next platter house to easily remove the tape without losing a frame and is not THAT difficult for any changeover house to add another piece to the backside for their purposes.

John is right, it is the new, untrained and uncaring kids who are running the shows now because the audience does not demand quality. At least the fellow single sided it back together instead of masking tape, stapling or not reattaching the leaders at all. Now those things I've got a problem with. Granted it is an extra pain for you to go back and double side the leaders back on, but as Ripley said to Burke "you mine as well start dealing with it" because platters are here to stay. (I do have absolutely NO tolerance for morons who cut more than 1 frame off on the leaders for ID purposes. It is very unprofessional and displays a complete lack of interest in caring for a print.)

Remember, it was not the platter that damaged that film, it was the operator...just like a bad operator can destroy a film running reel to reel.

The scratching and erasure is unexcusable, regardless of the method of film transport.

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Andy Davis
Film Handler

Posts: 49
From: Gainesville, FL
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 01-21-2000 06:45 PM      Profile for Andy Davis   Author's Homepage   Email Andy Davis   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
You should've seen the print of Magnolia we got this week. On break down, the previous theatre didn't detach each reel at the splice and attach the heads and tails. Instead, they filled up a reel to capacity and simply cut the film and stuck the reel in the can. I'm not even sure if they sent us the heads and tails. So now we have 18 splices in the film instead of 9! My GM used to work at the theatre we received the print from and so he called them and told them of their projectionist's laziness. I hope he gets fired.

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Gordon McLeod
Film God

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From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 01-21-2000 09:47 PM      Profile for Gordon McLeod   Email Gordon McLeod   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Not a question of platters vs changeovers though I dobt the black line would have been in the same place for all 13 reels but I have no use for white tape it will not bend properly in a DP70 especially witha single sided splice. Also the proper method doesn't cover the mag track either I like the turner 70mm prints we get They will not lease them to a plattered theatre so the pullups on the mag sound never get screwed up

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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99


 - posted 01-21-2000 09:55 PM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
Turner may not want you to think they lease to platter houses, but they do all the time. I have played MANY Turner prints at platter theaters. The question isn't even asked. Also, I have only once received a used print that didn't have it's leaders cut.

What do you mean pullups on the mag sound?

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John Walsh
Film God

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From: Connecticut, USA, Earth, Milky Way
Registered: Oct 1999


 - posted 01-21-2000 11:54 PM      Profile for John Walsh   Email John Walsh   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I didn't get the impression that Gordon was complaining about the heads and tails being cut off alone; just the poor way they were re-attached. Whoever had it before should get a bill for it. The film exchange must know who had it.

I think pull-ups are when the sound is recorded on a print such that it sounds correct at the c/o or splice. When an optical sound print is meant for c/o's, but is spliced together for platter use, the last 18 frames' worth of sound gets cut off, because the reel is cut at the last image frame. I guess (using 70mm) with the sound ahead of the picture, the first 24 frames' worth of sound gets cut off. Or something like that.

As a side question to Gordon: On a V8 mag penthouse, there are two ways to thread the film. One way places the picture and sound 24 frames apart. Or you can thread it 25 frames apart. Why two distances (24 or 25)? I thought it might be to compensate for long theaters where you might try to keep the sound in sync for people sitting very far away the screen.

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John Walsh
Film God

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From: Connecticut, USA, Earth, Milky Way
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 - posted 01-22-2000 12:07 AM      Profile for John Walsh   Email John Walsh   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
One other thing, if I can bore you a little more...

When I was the lead projectionist with a real staff in a real theater (seems like a dream now) I wouldn't let anyone switch off reels and projectors during a 70mm run. That is; all odd numbered reels always only ran on projector 1, and even reels only on projector 2. If one projector got screwed up somehow (like started scratching film) and no one noticed, at least it wouldn't damage every reel. This is easy to do with an even-numbered feature, but I used to get complaints with odd-numbered features, because you would have to wait for R7 to end to put R1 in. Luckly, never had a problem anyway.

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Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 01-22-2000 02:40 PM      Profile for Gordon McLeod   Email Gordon McLeod   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
John is correct a pull up is used to correct for the fact that the optical or mag head is not at the same location as a the picture sothe sound for incoming outgoing reels are repeated in the head and tail section when leaders get butchered especially with mag (or DTS even) where the sound is read above the picture the first bit of sound per reel is lost in part
I believe the 24/25 business on the v8 was to allow for 35mm and 70mm mag which has different offsets and the sprocket and roller diameter differences didn't make up for it

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Michael Cunningham
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 186
From: Anchorage, AK
Registered: Nov 1999


 - posted 01-22-2000 04:28 PM      Profile for Michael Cunningham   Email Michael Cunningham   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
As to the "losing" of the last 25 frames of sound when platter building: isn't the sound repeated on the head of the next reel? If not, then what is contained in the soundtrack of the first 25 frames of each reel? There is an obvious visible soundtrack, not a silent section, alongside the first 25 actual picture frames of each reel. Any thoughts?

-Mike

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Brad Miller
Administrator

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From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99


 - posted 01-22-2000 04:45 PM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
Yes, the sound IS repeated into the tail leader and starts in the head leader. Cutting the leaders off and replacing them does NOT in any way damage the capability to have a perfectly presented changeover show.

The only way it would affect a changeover presentation is if the last operator went in and cut frames off (some actually do this for souvenirs!) from building instead of peeling the tape off.

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William Hooper
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1879
From: Mobile, AL USA
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 01-24-2000 03:08 AM      Profile for William Hooper   Author's Homepage   Email William Hooper   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Yes, the sound IS repeated into the tail leader and starts in the head leader. Cutting the leaders off and replacing them does NOT in any way damage the capability to have a perfectly presented changeover show.
The only way it would affect a changeover presentation is if the last operator went in and cut frames off (some actually do this for souvenirs!) from building instead of peeling the tape off.

Loss of frames at the heads & tails seems to be more related to deterioration from repeated cut/splice at buildup than souvenir pickers. If you run many rep prints that have been plattered, you've seen:

1. The infamous two feet of individual frames spliced together by operators who don't peel the old splices at build up, but just whack the next one in from the splice

2. Mangled frames with emulsion peeled away, bent up at the sprockets, across or up the frame, etc. from manhandling at splice peeling.

And when it gets to that point, you might as well just throw those frames away. That's going to sound awful on a mag changeover.

Not to mention that if the prior houses spliced them back together with tape over the oxide mag tracks. Peeling them apart & putting them back together *will* damage an oxide ribbon.

And there go Gordon McLeod's pull-ups.

Sure, when a print gets abused to that point, it would be best to get a new print. How easy is it to get a new mag 70mm print of Lawrence of Arabia?


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Bill Carter
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 162
From: Minneapolis, Minnesota
Registered: Sep 1999


 - posted 01-24-2000 03:14 PM      Profile for Bill Carter   Email Bill Carter   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Now, I'm worried. We've got Lawrence of Arabia booked in 70mm next month. Anybody know if there's more than one print circulating?

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Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 01-24-2000 06:49 PM      Profile for Gordon McLeod   Email Gordon McLeod   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The print we use is only available in Canada

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