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Author Topic: Big Strong Flakes
Ian Price
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1714
From: Denver, CO
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 01-19-2000 12:04 AM      Profile for Ian Price   Email Ian Price   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
In our new cinema we have noticed some problems with flaking.

We are showing Some Like it Hot which is Black and White with North by Northwest, which is color. Some Like it Hot produces lots of powder and North by Northwest doesn't, so I know it is because it is a black and white print. They flake.

In my house with Girl Interrupted I am getting big flakes, not powder. The former projectionist said, "Oh, it always does that."

I am going to look at the steel, trap bands and see if they need to be replaced. Is there anyplace else in a Strong Simplex that you would recommend that I look for problems?

I went to Radio Shack and bought a couple of cans of air for $20 in order to blow out the projectors. Can you recommend a similar product at a lower price?

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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99


 - posted 01-19-2000 01:03 AM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
Ian, it has indeed been a long time since you've been in the booth! Use FilmGuard! Duh! You've seen it in action. You're not going to solve that flaking problem any other way. That's what it's there for.

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Bryan Montgomery
Film Handler

Posts: 3
From: Chillicothe,Ohio USA
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 01-19-2000 01:29 AM      Profile for Bryan Montgomery   Email Bryan Montgomery   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Film Guard will solve your flaking problems.
Dont mess with using S.C. Johnson's Paste Wax on the print edges as Kodak recomends,it works,(slowly)but leaves the print dangerously slippery and leaves residue in the head.
Film Guard, no flake,no fuzz,no fuss.

An alternative to buying the compressed air cans is the RAC from , I believe, Kinetronics. It is a lot like the commercial cans you use, but it's refillable when empty.
When you tank it out,place it in it's base and it refills it automatically.They also have handy attachments.
(It;s an idea I had long ago and should have patented.)
It may be pricey up front (I'm not sure) but it has to be more economical in the long run.

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Charles Lubner
Film Handler

Posts: 78
From: Milwaukee, WI USA
Registered: Sep 1999


 - posted 01-19-2000 02:14 AM      Profile for Charles Lubner   Author's Homepage   Email Charles Lubner   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
U.S. Office Products sells very cheap compressed air. If you're really nice on the phone, i'm sure they would send you a free catalog. The air cans they sell are also refillable which cuts down on cost.

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Ian Price
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1714
From: Denver, CO
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 01-19-2000 03:21 AM      Profile for Ian Price   Email Ian Price   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I will use Film-Guard, but that wasn't the question. The question was 'What in the projector would most likely be causeing the flaking to occur in only that projector.' The other projectionist said that it always happens in this one projector.

ps: I haven't seen any damage to the image yet. The booth is too dark to see any damage to the film. Girl Interupted will move to another auditorium next week and Angela's Ashes will be in this auditorium. I don't want to damage any film.

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 01-19-2000 02:45 PM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Although modern print films are quite resistant to abrasion, certain projectors may abrade the perforation and edge area more than others, resulting in flaking and dusting. Projector abrasion can be alleviated by proper print lubrication after processing, as specified in Kodak's processing specifications H-24.02 and H-24.09, and in SMPTE Recommended Practice RP151. Unfortunately, most laboratories no longer edge-wax 35mm prints because of the environmental restrictions on the solvents used to dissolve the wax.

In the October 1994 issue of "Film Notes for Reel People" (H-50-34), Kodak proposed the use of SC Johnson Paste Wax applied to the sidewalls of the wound film as an "EMERGENCY" method of lubricating prints that had not been properly lubricated, and were being abraded by certain projectors. The Summer 1998 issue of "Film Notes for Reel People" also discusses projector dusting:
http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/newsletters/reel/summer98/pointer.shtml

As noted, care is needed in applying the correct amount of paste wax to be sure it penetrates to the edges and perforation area where it is needed, without getting into the picture area or building up in the projector. The article clearly states the care needed to apply the wax properly, and that "the added wax will make the film roll more slippery".

Other proprietary post-process lubricants are on the market. Kodak has avoided recommending any particular proprietary film treatment because of the potential for misuse and possible adverse effect on the film. For example, in some areas of the world, mineral oils have been used as film lubricants, causing oil mottle, winding problems, stickiness, and leaching of the oil-soluble dyes from the film. Foreign materials (especially oils) applied to the film may later interfere with rewash processes and base treatments sometimes used by distributors to "rejuvenate" used prints.

As the Film Notes for Reel People article recommends, first find out what area of the projector is causing the abrasion. In most cases, the gate bands/rails or the intermittent sprocket shoe are the culprits. Check for any burrs, rough spots or buildup of hard debris. Use the lowest tension for the gate that will maintain a steady and sharp image. Use the lowest tension for the sprocket shoe that will keep the film properly wrapped on the sprocket. Clean and lightly lubricate these film-contacting components before each show. (Use a stick of carnauba wax, hard paraffin wax, or a very thin coating of paste wax).

When using a proprietary film treatment, follow instructions carefully, and be careful not to apply too much. Rely on the experiences of others in choosing a treatment, and recognize that some treatments may cause problems if the prints are later rejuvenated. If oil mottle (streaking and blotching), winding problems, stickiness, dye leaching (colored spots) or other problems are encountered, you may be misusing the film treatment product.

------------------
John Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Professional Motion Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Eastman Kodak Company
Rochester, NY 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Fax: 716-722-7243
john.pytlak@kodak.com


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Randy Stankey
Film God

Posts: 6539
From: Erie, Pennsylvania
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 01-19-2000 04:16 PM      Profile for Randy Stankey   Email Randy Stankey   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
When we had 'dandruff' problems at TT-17, in the days before FilmGuard, we found that ONE of our gates was too tight which resulted in 'scuffing' of the print edges. When that ONE projector scuffed the print, it ran dirty forever more. We could run a film for two months and have no more than the 'normal' amount of shedding. If you were lucky, only a little bit of pink powder. Once we put the print through proj. #6, it immediately started shedding and even if you moved the print to another house, it STILL shed.

Have your tech check the trap to shoe alignment. (On my Century SA-TA's, I use the 1/4 inch allen wrench 'trick'.) Once that proj. was fixed, the problem pretty much disappeared. With FilmGuard, it's 100% non-existant!

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Jim Bedford
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 597
From: Telluride, CO, USA (733 mi. WNW of Rockwall, TX but it seems much, much longer)
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 01-19-2000 06:18 PM      Profile for Jim Bedford   Author's Homepage   Email Jim Bedford   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Large: Sam's Club has three cans of spray air for about $9. Can't live without it. BF

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Joe Redifer
You need a beating today

Posts: 12859
From: Denver, Colorado
Registered: May 99


 - posted 01-19-2000 06:58 PM      Profile for Joe Redifer   Author's Homepage   Email Joe Redifer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Bryan - Go easy on the "submit" button!

Ian, the only "Big Strong Flake" is YOU! I have several projectors that flake more than others at my Christie-plex. I can't figure out why. But here's what you do. Run your media cleaner with FilmGuard on that projector for at least the first 3 or 4 days any film is in there. Then move the cleaner to another print on the other days. If one particular projector is giving you problems, then it needs FilmGuard the most. The only part of the film you are probably damaging are the edges. And only the SDDS tracks are there and nobody cares much about SDDS anymore so I wouldn't worry.

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George Roher
Master Film Handler

Posts: 266
From: Washington DC
Registered: Jul 99


 - posted 01-19-2000 10:17 PM      Profile for George Roher   Email George Roher   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Ian, how does your "North By Northwest" print look? Is it a recent print?

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Andrew D'Vrey
Film Handler

Posts: 92
From: St. Paul, MN USA
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 01-19-2000 11:41 PM      Profile for Andrew D'Vrey   Email Andrew D'Vrey   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Until we installed a compressed air system in our booth we used to use CO2 tanks supplied by pepsi. We just bought a hose adapter for it with a spray trigger. The only catch is you need a well ventilated booth because it thins the oxygen in the room really bad. So I strongly don't reccomend this unless you have good ventilation.

Alternatively we hooked up two air compressors and ran compressed air tubing out to all of our projectors and work stations. We then dropped down coiled air hoses and spray nosles. Got everything we needed at home depot...can't remember what it all cost us. Not that hard to install tho.

------------------
"And the monkey flips the switch."
- Major Don West, "Lost In Space"

Andrew D'Vrey
IATSE Local 219

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Ian Price
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1714
From: Denver, CO
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 01-20-2000 11:01 AM      Profile for Ian Price   Email Ian Price   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
George,

North by Northwest is a gorgeous print. It was brand new. It had only been plattered once before. Our Some like it Hot print is equally nice. That's why we got them. Look for Rear Window later this year.

Andrew,

There are no problems with ventilation in our booth. Apparently, nobody in Santa Rosa has heard of weather stripping. My cat's favorite sport is sticking her paws under the doors and batting at whatever is outside. I have to solve a ¼ inch light gap in our auditorium exit doors.

Thanks Carl, I will look into that. I want to solve the problem before I am covering it up.

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Tim Reed
Better Projection Pays

Posts: 5246
From: Northampton, PA
Registered: Sep 1999


 - posted 01-20-2000 01:53 PM      Profile for Tim Reed   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Check the trap rails/bands and gate shoes for excessive wear. That's been the cause in 90% of the cases I've seen.

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Ian Price
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1714
From: Denver, CO
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 02-06-2000 12:30 AM      Profile for Ian Price   Email Ian Price   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I have now replaced the trap bands in the "flaking" projector. The problem is solved. We are using Film-Guard in that house as well and the projector runs much quieter. The big dumb projectionist, who notices nothing, said today "Hey the projector isn't dirty any more." I have film cleaners on order and the world is alright, tonight.

(Joe: You thought I was the big dumb projectionist, who notices nothing.)

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