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Topic: Inspecting while building

James Dunn
Film Handler

Posts: 23

Registered: Oct 1999

posted 12-21-1999 12:43 PM

There's been some debate on here about inspecting the film while building. Many of you recommend building onto a 6000' reel and then onto the platter. I'm just curious how this is supposed to make it easier to inspect the film. I've looked at our tables and I don't see where I would have any more room to inspect the film while building onto the reel. Seems like it'd be easier to try an inspect building directly onto the platter. I'm going to try it tonight. BTW, any tips on inspecting? Best way to handle the film? Tricks for finding the lab splices?

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John Walsh
Film God

Posts: 2490
From: Connecticut, USA, Earth, Milky Way
Registered: Oct 1999

posted 12-21-1999 02:05 PM

For myself, I like to make-up at the rewind table just because it's higher, and I don't have to bend over. (Hey, I'm old; what am I gonna do!) The rewind table has a larger work surface to hold the splicer, tape, cues, etc. Whenever you load a film onto a platter (with a make-up table), the film wants to slip off the rollers ('cause it bends and twists) when you stop and there's no tension on the film. You have to watch that the film sits in all the rollers when starting to load a reel- which would be only twice for 6000 ft reel rather than every single 20min reel. It's easier to go backwards if you notice a bad spot, at least if you have a reversing rewind table.

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Erika Hellgren
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 168
From: Denver, Colorado
Registered: Jun 99

posted 12-21-1999 02:52 PM

I like to build up at the bench because it has a light over it and makes it easier for me to see everything. At the platter, there's a light, but that light shines into the auditorium and distracts from the movie that's playing in there. And I agree that the bench being higher is an advantage. I don't have the greatest back, so bending down is pretty painful. I think whether you inspect at the bench or the platter is a matter of what works best for you, but AS LONG AS YOU ARE INSPECTING AT ALL, that's the important thing.

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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99

posted 12-21-1999 08:19 PM

Everyone's speaking of their makeup tables, but no one is specifying the type. John, do you have a Strong or older SPECO table? If so I feel for you. The older Christie tables and newer SPECOs are nice to load from.

Somewhere I've got a picture of the new Christie makeup table which I HATE (to put it nicely). The traditional tables can even handle 16,000 foot reels. I'll post them both here once I can find them.

Christie PLEASE switch back!

Ok enough of that. When you inspect NEVER touch the picture area of the film. Instead, gently "cup" the film in between two (or more) fingers so you are not just feeling the tip edge, but a slight bit of the SDDS track. You'll feel a lab splice go through that way no problem. The trick here is the cupping of the film. Be forewarned, you might get some nice shocks if you don't use the other hand to ground yourself to the table.

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John Walsh
Film God

Posts: 2490
From: Connecticut, USA, Earth, Milky Way
Registered: Oct 1999

posted 12-21-1999 09:51 PM

The rewind table I'm using now is a newer Nuemade model (I don't know the model number.) It is all electronic. I can reverse direction with one switch. There are two other switchs next to each spindle- flipping those tells the table which direction the film is comming off the reel. This sets the proper tensioning. Also- an auto-shutoff, and a feature where you must turn the speed control to "0" before it will start. Removable spindles.... it's nice, but...

I used to work in a place with a Kelmar table, which although simpler, I liked better. The table was a little higher and wider (spindles were 4ft apart as opposed to the Nuemade at 3ft.) Reel locks (to hold the reels on the spindles) were not needed, because the spindles were tilted up slightly. So, you never had a reel wobble off onto the floor. Later models were reversable and had a flush mounted surface light for splicing. No fancy electronics, just a variac and rectifier driving DC motors. You could fix it yourself, with parts down at the local electric store. (Real cheap tables with AC motors don't run smoothly at low speeds.) It had an autoshut off arm with a roller that was a little hard on the film, but I never left film alone while rewinding, so didn't use it. There was a 'blank' mounting plate, where you could mount a film cleaner or a footage counter, etc. It also went at warp speed, which is nice with 6000ft reels- when you get sidetracked and R1-2-3 is running out and you forgot to rewind R4-5-6 from the previous show.....

I also kinda liked the classic Nuemade "tank" table; the one that would only run with your foot on the clutch- until you got tired and made an 'illegal' peice of metal to hold it down...

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George Roher
Master Film Handler

Posts: 266
From: Washington DC
Registered: Jul 99

posted 12-22-1999 12:43 AM

I find that it is MUCH easier to inspect a film at the bench. I don't feel lab splices and other anomalies as easily when I build straight to the platter. And when you find a lab splice, you have to slow the platter gently and keep tension on the reel so film doesn't hit the floor. Then you have to pull the film off the platter and back onto the reel, which takes some effort, and you still have to be very careful to keep the film from hitting the floor. And depending on how long it took you to carefully slow down the platter after you felt something strange, the offending splice may be under several wraps of film already. Not that this is always the case. Film can be properly inspected when building this way, it's just harder, and I make use of the bench whenever possible.

Besides, at the bench you can sit on a stool while you work which is much more comfortable than squatting for 30-45 minutes.

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Stephen Jones
Master Film Handler

Posts: 314
From: Geelong Victoria Australia
Registered: Jun 99

posted 12-22-1999 07:52 AM

I prefer to make up a print on the bench on to 6000s because I find it easier to check the print.When I break down a print I break down onto 2000ft spools or flats as it is quicker.

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James Dunn
Film Handler

Posts: 23

Registered: Oct 1999

posted 12-22-1999 01:20 PM

I'd really like to see some pictures of these benches you guys are talking about. Maybe I'd better understand their advantage. All we've got are the wheelable make-up tables and I see NO advantage to building up to a 6000' ft reel on those things. btw, when you say 'cupping', do you mean kinda like pinching (w/o any real pressure) over the soundtrack side of the sprocket holes? Just wanna make sure that I'm learning this right. lol

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Randy Stankey
Film God

Posts: 6539
From: Erie, Pennsylvania
Registered: Jun 99

posted 12-22-1999 01:28 PM

With all the crummy film that Technicolor sends out... combined with the horrible condition that I've seen other movies come in (New Yorker, Kit Parker, etc.)... one would have to be crazy not to do everything you can to inspect film.

We've got everybody at TT17 building up onto 6K reels now and they're even checking for lab splices. (After a lot of bitching and complaining on my part) Building onto big reels and just reeling it all onto the platter at once has really made a difference, especially when you have a lot of greenhorns doing the work. Just sitting somebody down at the bench and telling them to take their time improves things by 200%.

Make up tables? I hate the Speco. I love the Potts(Strong) Only thing I can complain about the Potts is that if you don't start out SLOWLY the rollers come undone and fall down, mangling the film. Horizontal reel tables are the way to go (for me) because you don't get the film on the floor anywhere near as easily. Also, everything's right within reach.

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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99

posted 12-22-1999 04:54 PM

Ok guys, here's a Christie "old style" AW3 platter loading a complete print from a 16,000 foot reel...

You just can't do that with those crappy horizontal tables. Also, the horizontal tables twist the film with excessive tension and/or like to bounce causing the film to fly off the rollers and get very badly damaged. Strongs are especially bad about this. Vertical MUTs are the only way to go.

John Walsh...I've only used the Neumade table once and I've got a few beefs. First, the tension was WAAAAAAY too high. Is there an adjustment for this? I didn't see an obvious one and had no manual (hint, hint to Ken Layton). Second, it does NOT allow large reels like shown above. Third, it's too low to the ground. Sitting isn't very comfortable and standing (er, I mean "hunching over") isn't too great either...and I'm not exactly tall either. Kelmar's got the best table hands down in my book. If only they would make a model with motors on both sides.

James Dunn...no, using your "bird" finger and your thumb is really all that's needed. Never should contact come with the emulsion side. Put the bird finger on one edge and the thumb on the opposite edge. I'll get a few pics of the proper way to inspect in the next couple of weeks and post them.

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John Walsh
Film God

Posts: 2490
From: Connecticut, USA, Earth, Milky Way
Registered: Oct 1999

posted 12-22-1999 07:01 PM

Regarding the Nuemade tables, I was told three years ago that there was no manual. You are right: there is no external tension adjustment. Tomorrow, I will call them and see what documention is avaiable- of maybe on Monday because of the hoilday. I at least would like a schematic, and there should be a manual by now. Nuemade is located only about 10 min from where I work, and they are usually pretty good about that stuff. Also I may have "mis-spoke" (BS'ed!) when I said that the spindles are only 3ft apart; we put large dia. reels (like the one in the picture) on it. But I think they only hold about 10,000 or 12,000 ft not 16,000. None of our theaters use large reels like that, except the Eprad "Sword" in the owner's basement.

Regarding the Kelmar tables, they do make a model with motors at both ends. Goto:
http://www.kelmarsystems.com/page15.html

I wish I had one of those digital cameras...

Also, I noticed in that picture of the AW3, the film goes from the reel to the top roller on the make up table mast- then to the roller at platter deck level. We had the same problem (the reel was too big to allow the rollers to be placed in the normal manner.) I made two peices that moved the mast out enough to clear the reel edge. There was too much strain on the that top roller, and it would pull it out of position, especially when the film was near the end.

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Scott Norwood
Film God

Posts: 8146
From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas)
Registered: Jun 99

posted 12-22-1999 10:18 PM

Where do you get 16,000' reels? The largest reels that I've ever seen are the Cinerama reels that take 12,000' of film. What would be the practical use of 16,000' reels? Are there any projector reel arms that would take that size or are they just used for "towers" (big reel systems that sit behind the projector and have their own takeup and rewind motors)?

Of course, the largest reels that are commonly used in theatres are about 26" in diameter with 4", 5", 6", or 7" hubs (fixed or floating). I've always called thse "6000' reels," although they usually hold a lot more than that. With a 26" diameter reel and 4" or 5" hub, I could often fit four not-quite-full shipping reels' worth of film onto it while still leaving 1/2" or so between the outer edge of the film and the edge of the reel.

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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99

posted 12-22-1999 10:44 PM

The AW3 MUTs can handle the large reels no problem. If you unhook the clamp and spin the "clip" part of it, you can tighten or loosen the grab tension. This will prevent the arm from giving toward the end of the reel.

Goldberg makes the reels. They'll make anything you want...for a price.

Let me know on that Neumade table manual. I'd like to add that to the download page.

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Tim Reed
Better Projection Pays

Posts: 5246
From: Northampton, PA
Registered: Sep 1999

posted 12-23-1999 10:28 AM

Inspecting at a proper inspection bench is easier because it is designed to do the job. It's impossible (for me) to inspect while winding onto the platter because, if you find a defect, it takes about a mile to stop the platter, and then you have to back it up to get to the splice. Whew!

This just is easier for me, but I guess it's all in what you learn on, and how you learn to do it.

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James Dunn
Film Handler

Posts: 23

Registered: Oct 1999

posted 12-23-1999 11:25 AM

Brad, thanks for the advise. I think I've got a pretty good idea what you're saying. It's just getting into the booth and doing the work. Then I'll get a better grip on it. Do me, and some of the other upstarts, a favor and still post the pics when you get a chance though. You guys have got to train us right, otherwise we'll end up learning everything from dip**** managers who got all their training in fast food. We don't want that now do we? lol

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