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Author Topic: Scratch problems
Masao Garcia
Film Handler

Posts: 34
From: Lancaster, CA, USA
Registered: Oct 1999


 - posted 10-27-1999 02:57 PM      Profile for Masao Garcia   Email Masao Garcia   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
We have Christie P35C projectors with FM-35 failsafes and Christie AW3R platters, and for some reason we get these short, vertical, black scratches on our prints. These scratches only occur on certain projectors and never on others, and they're usually noticeable after 3 weeks or so. I'd say the scratches take up about a third of a frame at most, and they are usually off center. They also don't seem to be totally consistent throughout the whole print, but will appear on and off. I'm guessing they are base side scratches because they are always black (but they could be shallow emulsion side scratches...I'll check some old trailers to be sure).

I guess my question is, has anyone else experienced these scratches before? I've checked how all my Usher-bs thread, and they all have pretty much the same thread patterns (i.e. no one threads off the rollers or anything like that). I notice that some have bigger or smaller loops than others, but nothing extreme (as far as I know). I've heard the term, "standing scratches" before, and I was wondering if those are what I'm describing? What are "standing scratches"? Thanks for any info.

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John Walsh
Film God

Posts: 2490
From: Connecticut, USA, Earth, Milky Way
Registered: Oct 1999


 - posted 10-27-1999 04:27 PM      Profile for John Walsh   Email John Walsh   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Seems like it must be something around the intermittent; upper loop, or right after the intermittent. I had a situation where a guy would thread a fairly large lower loop (after the intermittent on a Simplex.) Sometimes he had threaded out-of-frame. When he turned the framing knob to correct it, the lower loop was made bigger, and hit the projector casting. When the show was over, he would return the framing knob to center, but short scratches would be left on the film.

Question: Do Christie projectors have a framing method like a Simplex or Norelco, where the intermittent sprocket rotates around it's center, or does the entire intermittent assembly move up/down like a Century or Cinemecannica?

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John Wilson
Film God

Posts: 5438
From: Sydney, Australia.
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 10-27-1999 05:38 PM      Profile for John Wilson   Email John Wilson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
It sounds like one of your projectionists is making their loops too big.

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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99


 - posted 10-27-1999 08:57 PM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
Altering the framing on a Christie will change the loop size. This is why I strongly recommend they be locked down. If the projectionist threads out of frame...then it is he who will have to suffer the embarassment of stopping it, framing it correctly and then restarting it. That'll only happen once.

Sounds like the lower loop is being made too big. On a Christie, you want that lower loop to be as big as possible WITH THE FILM TUGGING ON THE OPEN LOWER PAD ROLLER. With that pad roller in the open position turning the machine over by hand, if the film is not tugging gently on the pad roller, you WILL get standing scratches. However, make sure the loop is not too small. Basically make the loop just big enough so it doesn't tug and then lower it by one sprocket hole. That is optimum size.

Christie has come up with a nifty little addition that can be screwed underneath the Ultramittent to prevent this. It is a set of guide rails and their part number is #196189-001. See if your theater will let you requisition some.

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Masao Garcia
Film Handler

Posts: 34
From: Lancaster, CA, USA
Registered: Oct 1999


 - posted 10-27-1999 10:48 PM      Profile for Masao Garcia   Email Masao Garcia   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Cool, thanks again for the suggestions. I'll look into my Usher Bs' threading habits and look into that Ultramittent part.

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Jim Ziegler
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 753
From: West Hollywood, CA
Registered: Jul 99


 - posted 10-28-1999 02:35 AM      Profile for Jim Ziegler   Email Jim Ziegler   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Brad,

What do these add-ons look like? Are they standard on the projectors now, or are they optional?

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Joe Redifer
You need a beating today

Posts: 12859
From: Denver, Colorado
Registered: May 99


 - posted 10-28-1999 04:12 AM      Profile for Joe Redifer   Author's Homepage   Email Joe Redifer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
It happens only on certain projectors but not on others? Not a loop size problem. Sounds to me like the screws inside the gate have become loose and are rubbing against the base side of the film. I have seen this happen occasionally. Check every single screw you can find in the gate/trap area and make sure they are tight.

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Paul Konen
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 981
From: Frisco, TX. (North of Dallas)
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 10-28-1999 09:57 AM      Profile for Paul Konen   Email Paul Konen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
We had those too. They appeared on the right side of the print and were associated with one projector. We found that it see to be coming from the removable brain. It wouldn't drag around the bottom, but may have been dragging on something in the fingers.

Also, these scratches would wander, they weren't always in the same place. Just the right side of the image.

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Jim Ziegler
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 753
From: West Hollywood, CA
Registered: Jul 99


 - posted 10-29-1999 04:19 AM      Profile for Jim Ziegler   Email Jim Ziegler   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Paul, I have had that happen twice now, as well. I haven't figured out what has caused it yet (not that I have looked into it much, the offending brains are on my workbench where they can do no harm). Anyone know which part of the brain is causing this problem?

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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99


 - posted 10-29-1999 05:02 AM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
I do believe the new guard rails are standard on all new Christie projectors. Bevan Wright from Christie (come on Bevan, you know you read the forum) could tell us for sure.

They basically just screw in underneath the Ultramittent. There is no technician required. It is a fantastic upgrade!

If any of you guys who are having these scratches can send me a trailer (or just several feet from one) that has these scratches on them, I should be able to track down the cause of them just by looking at it. The shipping address is at the bottom of the FilmGuard page on the site.

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Jim Ziegler
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 753
From: West Hollywood, CA
Registered: Jul 99


 - posted 10-29-1999 01:42 PM      Profile for Jim Ziegler   Email Jim Ziegler   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The scratches comming from the top part of the brain rollers.. I am wondering if it is caused by that tension spring. I haven't really dug into it yet, as I have more pressing matters to take care of.

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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99


 - posted 10-29-1999 02:54 PM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
Coming from the top part of the brain rollers? Not sure I understand. Are your scratches on the right, like Paul's? Do you run soundtrack up or down?

Paul is local. Perhaps he can save some samples for me. The Christie AW3 is the best platter on the market. I'm shocked to hear it would be scratching and would like to find out the cause.

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Jim Ziegler
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 753
From: West Hollywood, CA
Registered: Jul 99


 - posted 10-30-1999 03:19 AM      Profile for Jim Ziegler   Email Jim Ziegler   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Yes, I am running soundtrack down, and they were on the right, so it had to be the top of the rollers.

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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99


 - posted 10-30-1999 03:48 AM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
Unless the two white stationary stripper posts are too close together and clogged with dirt (which I doubt) there really isn't anything in the AW3 brain that could cause this, except...

Does the film drag around the back side of the brain during the movie? If so, it is possible the delicate emulsion side of the film is rubbing against the back side of the brain and causing your scratches. If it doesn't, I really don't think there is anything in the brain that could cause it. In that case, I'd check the projector.

Send me a sample if you can.

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Jim Ziegler
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 753
From: West Hollywood, CA
Registered: Jul 99


 - posted 10-30-1999 02:08 PM      Profile for Jim Ziegler   Email Jim Ziegler   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I don't think I have any samples. However, I did trace this to the brain when we were screening a new print. Basically, I just followed the line on the film and it lead to the brain. When I switched brains, it stopped scratching. I had another print that was starting to show the same type of damage, and we pulled that brain and the damage stopped there as well. Both of these platters were paying out correctly, so that was not the cause.

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