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» Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE   » Operations   » Film Handlers' Forum   » It went "Phfft!" (Page 1)

 
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Author Topic: It went "Phfft!"
Bruce McGee
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1776
From: Asheville, NC USA... Nowhere in Particular.
Registered: Aug 1999


 - posted 10-06-1999 09:42 AM      Profile for Bruce McGee   Email Bruce McGee   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 

Last night, I was running an older title on the Holmes. It was my first real audience. I had gotten up to the final reel where there is a big train crash. My Sony receiver crashed. Nothing was any louder than normal.

I blew the pre-amp.

What do I need to get to reduce and properly EQ the solar cell output? I need to get it close to the impedance levels on the system.

I was running my amp with the bass "all the way down" and treble about normal. I am happy that I didn't ruin the amp. I thought I had blown the outputs.

For now, there is no sound. Should I give up and go back to a real PA amplifier? I've never designed anything to change the impedance on anything, so I dont know what to do here.

With all the incredible talent lurking all over this site, there has got to be someone that will tell me what to do next.

((Some of you have already told me what to do: buy a real projector!))

I hope that you folks can shed some light on this problem. I will have the receiver running in a day or two. I'll run the Holmes thru another old projector (Eiki) like I used to... Sucky sound!

Oh yeah...The Holmes is still forced to use the Eiki solar cell installed in the PE cell socket. It is going from there thru a small mixer to lower the level enough to not fry the Sony. The bass levels were very hot.

I tried a few days ago to make a cassette recording of a soundtrack so I could hear it later without the drone of the Holmes. The signal was very bass-heavy and low. I was obviously warned then that something was very wrong.

My brain must have skipped a groove. Too much film cleaner?

Thanks

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Scott Norwood
Film God

Posts: 8146
From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas)
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 10-06-1999 11:23 AM      Profile for Scott Norwood   Author's Homepage   Email Scott Norwood   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
A microphone preamp will work. I have an old Altec mixer/amp thing that was evidently designed for PA applications, but which will work fine with a standard solar cell. Just wire the red+green outputs from the solar cell to pin 2 of a standard XLR connector, and the black wire from the solar cell to pin 3. Connect the cable shield to a projector ground point. This works fine. If you want to get fancy, you can add an EQ box to simulate the proper "academy curve" and the high-end roll off point. Some Dolby manuals explain this better than I can. Basically, it's an early noise-reduction scheme that works pretty well, considering the primitive technology in use in the 1930s.

Or you could just get a real projector. <grin>

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John Walsh
Film God

Posts: 2490
From: Connecticut, USA, Earth, Milky Way
Registered: Oct 1999


 - posted 10-06-1999 11:30 AM      Profile for John Walsh   Email John Walsh   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
If you know the output impedence of the projector and the input impedence of the preamp, we can figure out a resistor network to match them. A better, but more expensive way it to use a transformer. I'm guessing, but it seems that the input level is to high, which could be solved with a simple attenuator.

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Rick Long
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 759
From: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Registered: Nov 1999


 - posted 10-06-1999 12:03 PM      Profile for Rick Long   Email Rick Long   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
To alleviate the heavy bass problem, try loading the cell with a 1K resistor (cell + to cell - ),typically red to black. This should reduce the gain somewhat as well.
BTW what input were you using on the Sony receiver?

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Rick Long
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 759
From: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Registered: Nov 1999


 - posted 10-06-1999 12:26 PM      Profile for Rick Long   Email Rick Long   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
If heavy bass is still a problem, try putting a capacitor in series with the hot lead coming from the cell. Somewhere between 0.01 uF and 0.22 uF oughta do it. Experiment until you get the balance you're happy with. Capacitor voltage rating at this point in the circuit should not be a problem.

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Bruce McGee
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1776
From: Asheville, NC USA... Nowhere in Particular.
Registered: Aug 1999


 - posted 10-06-1999 12:50 PM      Profile for Bruce McGee   Email Bruce McGee   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I have a 1K resistor on hand. If that doesent work, I'll try the cap. I was using the AUX input. I have a nice 4/2 mixer to control the volume. It has to be the over-ripe bass level that is causing the blow-up.

BTW: There is no standard on this Holmes for wiring. Red is hot (+) and black is negative/ground/frame ground. There are no voltage leaks anywhere. That was the first thought. I have the nice stereo cell that Brad sent me. I have not installed it yet. There is no where for it to go without stray light affecting it, for now.

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David Koegel
Film Handler

Posts: 55
From: Alexandria, VA
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 10-06-1999 01:48 PM      Profile for David Koegel   Email David Koegel   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Wow! I'm shocked <g> that the voltage was high enough out of the solar cell to fry the preamp. AUX inputs are typically good for around 1 volt. MIC inputs (which I'm using) are much lower, in the millivolt range, just like the PHONO input but without the added equalization. Furthermore, doesn't the Academy curve look similar to the RIAA curve, with the optical track having a boosted treble and suppressed bass (to prevent over modulation of the track) that is equalized in the preamp/processor?

From what you are telling us, I think that it was "just time" for that receiver :-)
-- David Koegel

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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99


 - posted 10-06-1999 02:40 PM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
How old is this Sony receiver? I too am shocked that the output from a solar cell could damage the "AUX" input! I could see perhaps if you were using the "PHONO" input...but the AUX???

I'm assuming you don't have any test eqiupment, so let's test this in a simple way. Get yourself a cassette or reel to reel deck. Hook up your cd player. Run some typical program material (not classical) into it in "record/pause" mode. Set your levels so the signal occasionally tips into the red.

Now, without touching those input recording levels, hook up your Holmes into this tape deck and play something such as a trailer (they're always recorded "hot"). Are the levels pinning the meter? If they are the same or lower, your Sony was ready to die anyway and the Holmes probably wasn't to blame. I'll bet you will find your levels won't even tip into the red, though.

Let us know. That's the simplest way I can think of to see what kind of output that Holmes is sending.

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Joe Redifer
You need a beating today

Posts: 12859
From: Denver, Colorado
Registered: May 99


 - posted 10-06-1999 04:39 PM      Profile for Joe Redifer   Author's Homepage   Email Joe Redifer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I've said it before and I'll say it again: Sony Sucks! Whether it is a $1 blank tape or a $10,000+ SDDS system, they are up to no good. Get a different brand of receiver.

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Bruce McGee
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1776
From: Asheville, NC USA... Nowhere in Particular.
Registered: Aug 1999


 - posted 10-06-1999 05:49 PM      Profile for Bruce McGee   Email Bruce McGee   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I was shocked at Davids reply! <g>

Actually, even though I have no meter for voltage checking, I have already done the Brad Miller approach. I tried a CD and the record levels. With the levels set at normal for CD's the film sound level was much hotter with bass.

I am sure that the Sony was not getting ready to die again, as the aux input was the only function that died. It's a 4 year old receiver, and other than the trouble that I posted here recently, I've had no problems. I ordered a pair of IC's today that will be here by Tuesday. These both carry the signal from aux in to the preamp input chips. (one each L & R)

My scope (which is junk) showed a signal coming in to each of the IC's and nothing coming out although all VCC voltage is normal. Anyway, the signal was not too hot because I had no problems with clipping, and distortion on high frequencies. I am going to try the resistor, and cap method and see what happens.

I should get a real projector and give up.

WHAT AM I SAYING? Holmes is GOOD.

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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99


 - posted 10-06-1999 09:22 PM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
Out of curiosity, what is your exciter running at?

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Martin Murray
Film Handler

Posts: 69
From: ennis tx
Registered: Sep 1999


 - posted 10-07-1999 01:08 AM      Profile for Martin Murray   Email Martin Murray   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Bruce, If you lower the voltage to your exciter bulb to around 3.5-4 volts it should cure most of your problem. I've set up several drive-ins in the Carolinas with stereo sound and have had to lower the voltage on every one to protect the car radios and speakers, most of them can't handle the hot bass. I also add a Techniques {sp} equalizer [available at Circuit City or your local pawn shop] in the solar cell line before the mixer/preamp this will let you cut some of the bass and also cut out any noise that needs to go. The same set up will work will work with mono, just use one side of the eq, I know because I did one drive-in that did not want to update the solar cell. I've done it several ways without using a processor and what you are doing is basicly the same thing. Just e-mail me if you have any questions driveinnc@webtv.net
Martin

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David Koegel
Film Handler

Posts: 55
From: Alexandria, VA
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 10-07-1999 09:39 AM      Profile for David Koegel   Email David Koegel   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Bruce: With your abilities to fix electronics at the board level, HOW CAN YOU NOT HAVE A VOLTMETER? I just got a steal of one on Yahoo auction, digital, for $17.50. Want one for Christmas :-)

I wish you had one, 'cause I'd love to know what kind of voltage levels your solar cells are putting out. Sounds more like the higher voltage of a photocell -- ouch!

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Bruce McGee
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1776
From: Asheville, NC USA... Nowhere in Particular.
Registered: Aug 1999


 - posted 10-07-1999 04:24 PM      Profile for Bruce McGee   Email Bruce McGee   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I have a B&K digital meter that has the worst 1 volt or less sensitivity that I have ever seen. I get no indications on the millivolt settings. The fuses are all good, and the meter has been to the service center once. There is no PE voltage on the Holmes, beause there is a solar cell that generates its own current, and there is no 90v potential. I have lowered the exciter voltage. Sound has less boom, but will try the resistor hopefully tonight, and the caps latER IF this doesent work.

For now, the supply house had one IC for the Sony in stock. The other will be direct shipped to me in a day or so.

My roommate had a suggestion: static.
I dont think so, because there is a 3 prong plug grounding the case and gearcase together, and a wire grounding the amp to the projector in addition to the patch cables. The outlet is properly grounded, too.

This Sony has been trouble, but it was only poor soldering. These are the first new anythings I've bought for it. It has no problem pumping my speakers.

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Rick Long
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 759
From: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Registered: Nov 1999


 - posted 10-07-1999 09:28 PM      Profile for Rick Long   Email Rick Long   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Bruce, as I understand it, you were running from the solar cell into the mixer and then, from the mixer output into the Sony receiver. Are you sure that the mixer didn't go "belly-up" causing the damage to the Sony? You might want to check the mixer out before re-connecting it to the receiver.

Regarding the resistor and cap ideas, try the resistor first. If the bass is still to strong, leave the resistor in place (across the cell) and then put the cap from cell + to the input of the mixer. Wire the low or ground side as normal.

If the signal is still too strong, try using a voltage-divider network, consisting of two 470-ohm resistors in series across the cell. Pick off the line going to the mixer, from ground, and the junction of these two resistors. In other words total cell voltage appears across the combination of the two resistors. By picking your feed across one resistor, you are dropping your input signal voltage by 1/2. Clear as mud?

Just some clarification. Good luck.

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