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» Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE   » Operations   » Film Handlers' Forum   » Wet gate projection (Page 1)

 
This topic comprises 3 pages: 1  2  3 
 
Author Topic: Wet gate projection
Mark
unregistered




 - posted 06-04-1999 06:08 PM            Edit/Delete Post 
I was looking at the pictures of this site and I saw that one of the captions said
that this theater is equiped for "wet gate projection". Now, I've heard of wet gate
printing, where a film is immersed in a liquid before entering the printer (which
helps to cover up scratches by slightly filling them in) but I've never heard of this
term used in projection before. Did I miss something? How does this work, and
what are the benifits?

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Brad Miller
unregistered




 - posted 06-04-1999 06:09 PM            Edit/Delete Post 
Wet gate projection is what most people would call it. For lack of a
decided-upon name it is referred to as P-5.

In the simplest terms, P-5 is a lubricant that will not deteriorate the polyestar base
unlike other lubricants. It does not dry out and evaporate within seconds like
other popular film cleaners (Renovex, Vitafilm, Filmrenew, RTI, etc) but is
designed to stay on the print in liquid form.

The P-5 is applied through the use of a normal media-type film cleaner (soaking
the pads in it) and for optimum results the pads are rewound and run again after
every show and reused for one week at a time. Just one application will make the
film run substantially quieter and smoother. The picture will be more steady and
have better focus. After multiple applications a nice thin layer is formed on the
print, which will cover up scratches and dirt.

The way the P-5 covers up scratches is exactly like wet gate printing does. Again
to put it in simple terms, the light is refracted through the liquid coating bending the
light ever so slightly and giving the appearance of a scratch free print. Granted,
this won't eliminate heavy emulsion scratches, but virtually all base side scratches
will no longer project and over a bit of time will discolor emulsion scratches to
project black.

As to dirt, the constant cleaning through the media cleaners keeps the print
perfectly clean without being abrasive. If the P-5 applications is stopped then
obviously dirt will start being attracted as normal. However, the thickness of the
P-5 coating will keep the dirt layer out of focus during projection and one swipe
of the cleaner (even a dry one) will knock all the dirt off again.

Another benefit of the P-5 cleaner is the stopping of vinear syndrome. In test
prints of early stage vinegar syndrome, applying P-5 would knock out the smell
and as of about 5 years the films have not deteriorated. P-5 will also work nicely
on prints that are starting to shrink. However, both of the above must be caught in
time. Obviously an unrunnable print cannot be magically restored to runnable
condition. P-5 will however make a print run smooth that was on it's last days and
prevent it from deteriorating more. How much longer is unknown as the product
has only been in testing for 10 years.

Still though, for new theaters and new prints, applying P-5 will keep them in better
than brand new condition (because of shipping dirt) for months and months of
constant running. Take for example the scene in Matrix where Keanu Reeves and
Lawrence Fishburne are in the "white" room (basically clear film except for the
actors and two chairs). Imagine this looking as clean as a DVD even after running
for 6 months! That's what P-5 does.

P-5 has been in constant testing for 8-10 years now at various theaters under
varying conditions and equipment. There have been no side effects or negative
feedback whatsoever. The UA Galaxy is a test theater. Hopefully it will be on the
market next year.

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Chris Trainor
unregistered




 - posted 06-04-1999 06:10 PM            Edit/Delete Post 

Wow, that stuff sounds cool. I'd love to get one of those systems for my film
collection. Will probably help preserve the films quite a bit.

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Christopher Seo
unregistered




 - posted 06-04-1999 06:12 PM            Edit/Delete Post 
Glad to see this product is making progress. I still don't quite understand its
method of working, though. You say P-5 will stay on the print in liquid form.
Therefore, how permanent is this coating? I understand its function as a general
purpose film cleaner which should be regularly used to keep new dirt and new
scratches away, but will it have to be applied constantly in order to keep existing
scratches from showing and vinegar prints from further deteriorating? Can it be
removed or washed off from the print or would this never be necessary?
Basically, I'm not sure if it is intended as something to be used just when the print
is used, or something that always stays on the film.


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Brad Miller
unregistered




 - posted 06-04-1999 06:14 PM            Edit/Delete Post 
The coating will stay on a print for months, or longer in some storage conditions.
Eventually though, it will evaporate away from time. So yes, it must be reapplied
for archive/collector prints whenever they are ran to ensure they stay in top
condition. However, it takes about the same time to set a cleaner up for running
as opposed to cleaning the projector head after a show...so as far as extra trouble
goes, it really isn't an extra burden.

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Mark
unregistered




 - posted 06-04-1999 06:14 PM            Edit/Delete Post 

I'm still not quite clear on this: where does the application process take place? Is
this something that is in line with the thread path (after the feed platter)? Or is it
applied on platter make up? From the photos of the UA 9, I can't quite make out
the applicator. Thanks. . .

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Brad Miller
unregistered




 - posted 06-04-1999 06:15 PM            Edit/Delete Post 

The applicator is a normal media cleaner. It is mounted on the side of the platter
before the film gets to the projector.


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Jeremy Spracklen
Film Handler

Posts: 39
From: Arlington, TX, USA
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 06-13-1999 03:26 AM      Profile for Jeremy Spracklen   Email Jeremy Spracklen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I am one of the fortunate test theaters who have used the wet gate method. All I have to say is wow! Anyone who has seen what this product can do will be instantly amazed. Last year we began using the P-5 film lubricant at what would have to be described as one of the worst Loews theaters in the chain. We had a manager who was dead set on the power of PTRs. (What an ass!) He was just about to purchase a set for the entire theater when we began using the P-5. He loved it so much that when I left he offered to keep me on the payroll just so he could keep using the lubricant. The money he was able to save from the weekly cleaning of the projectors on top of the customers who were returning after finally seeing a presentation free of scratches and even the smallest speck of dirt more than made up for the cost of the bottles. We are now able to keep prints for six months at a time without the slightest mark on the film. It even works great when we get films in bad condition from the other theaters in our zone. No matter how much dirt is on the film, with a couple of applications it looks like brand new. This is a product that will revolutionize the film industry.

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Peter Goed
Film Handler

Posts: 1
From: Brisbane, Australia
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 06-13-1999 06:46 AM      Profile for Peter Goed   Email Peter Goed   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
This stuff just sounds too good to be true.
How to I get to try it out on my 68 year old Nitrate Prints, which I show on a regular basis and are in extremely good condition, but are starting to show some fine wear lines.

I find it extremely difficult to access new ideas down-under in Australia, mainly because we are so far from the scene where everything is happening.

------------------

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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99


 - posted 07-11-1999 03:22 PM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
UPDATE:

We are gearing up for commercial production on the film cleaning/lubricant commonly referred to as P-5. Our patent lawyers expect us to be able to release the product within a couple of months.

We have also added another test theater: The Mann Chinese in Denver, Colorado. Joe Redifer will be testing it up there for us. He has agreed to report his findings here on the forum and will try to rejuvenate a two month old print of Phantom Menace to "lab new" conditions. He will also be putting it to the real test of performing ONLY intermittent cleaning, instead of the recommended constant cleaning.

We look forward to hearing your results, Joe.

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Ken Layton
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1452
From: Olympia, Wash. USA
Registered: Sep 1999


 - posted 07-11-1999 03:38 PM      Profile for Ken Layton   Email Ken Layton   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
How is P-5 in regards to splices? Does it weaken or loosen the adheisive on the splicing tape? Will it discolor clear splicing tape after awhile?

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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99


 - posted 07-11-1999 03:44 PM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
No degradation to splices noticed nor reported.

Many prints have ran from between 4-6 months and a one as long as 8 months, 3 weeks, 6 shows a day.

If splicing onto a print that has been coated, as in a film break or a rebuild of a used print, use your cloth and wipe that frame dry before applying the tape.

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Brian Paymer
Film Handler

Posts: 31

Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 07-12-1999 12:14 AM      Profile for Brian Paymer     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I can't wait. I hate my ptrs. They are the biggest insult to the industry thus far. And they come from Kodak too.

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Joe Redifer
You need a beating today

Posts: 12859
From: Denver, Colorado
Registered: May 99


 - posted 07-12-1999 12:45 AM      Profile for Joe Redifer   Author's Homepage   Email Joe Redifer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
You mention PTRs. Therefore I MUST comment. STOP USING THEM AT ONCE!!!! We used to use them quite frequently about a year ago. I was always skeptical about them. So one day I grabbed them all and locked them in one of the soundracks (I have the only key). Our films got noticeably cleaner. There is not much you can do to films that have already had the PTR treatment, but if you have a film that has never had a PTR run on it, it will end up cleaner in the long run.

I will report on the P5, which is now officially called "FilmGuard" over the next few weeks. All I gotta say right now is this -- Start buying as many media cleaners as you can... try to get 1 per screen!

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Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 07-16-1999 06:04 PM      Profile for Gordon McLeod   Email Gordon McLeod   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I will disagree over the PTR question for I have found them to be exceptional in use especially in large format work.
Another better product though costly is the DryPurr roller. This roller has a sillyputty like material on it and you don't clean them just wrapthem up. They only last about 6 months so are costly and will not work with photoguarded prints. They also eliminate all static
Is P5 similar to Tomakote?
For it is very flamable and we had a film fire in Kitchener Ontario when a belt on a V5 broke wrapping about 200 feet of film around the upper sprocket and the gate and it ignited and the audience could see 6" flames rising off the machine through the portholes.
I understand that even after coating Tomakote leaves a flamable film on the print
Gordon McLeod

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