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Author Topic: Stange white lines in top picture ??
Henrik Sanden
Film Handler

Posts: 4
From: Stockholm, Sweden
Registered: Apr 2002


 - posted 11-03-2002 03:16 PM      Profile for Henrik Sanden   Author's Homepage   Email Henrik Sanden   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
A few weeks ago we got a copy of Tripple X. Just after each cut in the movie, a white line appears in the top of the frame. Why ?

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Tim Reed
Better Projection Pays

Posts: 5246
From: Northampton, PA
Registered: Sep 1999


 - posted 11-03-2002 03:30 PM      Profile for Tim Reed   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Sounds like splice marks in the negative. If this is a scope picture and the film is only slightly out of frame, or if there's a bit too much of the frame showing on the screen, you'll see the negative splice marks.

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Better Projection Pays!

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Dave Williams
Wet nipple scene

Posts: 1836
From: Salt Lake City, UT, USA
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 11-03-2002 03:32 PM      Profile for Dave Williams   Author's Homepage   Email Dave Williams   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I have seen this most frequently with FOX features. What studio is XXX from? I have seen it from all, but most FOX pictures have this problem. It makes it kind of impossible to get the entire true frame on screen.

Dave

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Jon Bartow
Master Film Handler

Posts: 287
From: Massachusetts
Registered: Nov 1999


 - posted 11-03-2002 04:20 PM      Profile for Jon Bartow   Email Jon Bartow   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Tim!
Northampton, PA?
Please e-mail me and tell me what has been happening with you.
Jonathan Bartow

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Scott Norwood
Film God

Posts: 8146
From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas)
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 11-03-2002 04:27 PM      Profile for Scott Norwood   Author's Homepage   Email Scott Norwood   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Sometimes this is visible in some reels and not in others. Apparently this is a result of bi-directional printing, where the picture will be shifted slightly "up" or "down" depending on which reel was printed in which direction. For some reason, "Enigma" was really bad in this respect and needed to be re-framed at every reel change. And, no, the negative splices shouldn't be visible on screen if the aperture plates are cut to spec.

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Randy Stankey
Film God

Posts: 6539
From: Erie, Pennsylvania
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 11-03-2002 04:55 PM      Profile for Randy Stankey   Email Randy Stankey   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
When polyester film was popularized the method of splicing had to change. You can't use cement to splice poly. Editors and lab operators had to switch to ultrasonic splicers. (A fancy form of using heat to fuse the two pieces of film together.) Those splice lines, be they chemical/cement splices or ultrasonic/heat splices do show up in the final print when the negatives are duplicated.

When that happened, the width of the splice line got just a hair-bit wider. In order to compensate for that, SMPTE declared that aperture plates be made just a hair-bit smaller (in the vertical dimension) to cover the white mark left by the wider splices.

This is not a problem with FLAT prints because only SCOPE prints will use the whole frame. FLAT prints only use (approximately) HALF the area of each frame. Fat frame lines don't matter.

What is likely to be happening to you is one of two things:
(Or both)


  1. Your aperture plates are still filed to the old standard and the fat frame lines are showing through when you come to a scene/camera change.

  2. You are framing your picture just a hair-bit too high or low. Try adjusting your framing knob just an wee bit up or down and see if you can't make it go away.

True, some films may have bad, out of place or non-standard frame lines which will exacerbate the problem. In which case you probably just have to live with it and be secure in the knowledge that 90% of the people out there don't have the "mental bandwidth" to recognize it.

If it's just one or two prints every once in a while, don't worry about it. There's not a lot you can do. IF you have this problem a lot, especially if it happens on more than one projector in your complex, call your tech and have him make you new aperture plates to the new SMPTE standard.

One final thought: Might you have a gremlin in your theatre that likes to file aperture plates?

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Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 11-03-2002 05:19 PM      Profile for Gordon McLeod   Email Gordon McLeod   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Ultrasonic splices are narrower than cement splices

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Tim Reed
Better Projection Pays

Posts: 5246
From: Northampton, PA
Registered: Sep 1999


 - posted 11-03-2002 06:21 PM      Profile for Tim Reed   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Editors and lab operators had to switch to ultrasonic splicers.

Isn't polyester used only in release prints?

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Better Projection Pays!

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Steve Kraus
Film God

Posts: 4094
From: Chicago, IL, USA
Registered: May 2000


 - posted 11-03-2002 07:46 PM      Profile for Steve Kraus     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Negative splice lines may sometimes become visible but only on Scope release prints made from anamorphic negatives. They are there on 1.85, 1.66, and 1.37 prints as well but the projectable area comes nowhere near them, unlike on Scope. And Scope prints made via the Super 35 process won't have them because the negative is cut and spliced before the optical blowup is done and of course the extraction area is also nowhere near the splice, although you may see occasional lines if changes were made after the blowup and cut into the anamorphic IP. Otherwise each frameline is clean whether its at a scene change or not.


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Demetris Thoupis
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1240
From: Aradippou, Larnaca, Cyprus
Registered: Apr 2001


 - posted 11-04-2002 08:50 AM      Profile for Demetris Thoupis   Email Demetris Thoupis   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Why does everyone keep thinking technical when there might be a simpler answer. What if the picture was a bit out of frame? That would explain why the white line appears. If the picture's top frame was just underneath the apperture plate then that white line would appear. It depends on the cinema.
Demetris Thoupis

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Steve Kraus
Film God

Posts: 4094
From: Chicago, IL, USA
Registered: May 2000


 - posted 11-04-2002 09:44 AM      Profile for Steve Kraus     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Framing is clearly a part of the answer...with properly filed aperture plates one does not see the white lines from negative splices unless one is slightly out of frame. But if by your comment you are suggesting he's simply out of frame and it has nothing to do with negative splices please refer back to the original question because he specifically says he is seeing the lines ONLY after each cut in the film. Also, the normal frame lines on contact printed material are black but are often white on Super 35 blowups because the blowup is usually done from cut camera negative (the "EK") to IP. The tiny unexposed area between anamorphic frames on the IP will be clear after processing...then contact printing to dupe negative it will be black...then contact printing to release print it will be white. So going extremely out of frame on a Super 35 Scope release you'd see a white line while on true anamorphic you'd see black (just as you would on any other format but you'd have to go a long long way out of frame to see it projected) but with momentary white flashes at the scene changes and these are just barely out of the projectable area.

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Aaron Sisemore
Flaming Ribs beat Reeses Peanut Butter Cups any day!

Posts: 3061
From: Rockwall TX USA
Registered: Sep 1999


 - posted 11-04-2002 11:00 AM      Profile for Aaron Sisemore   Email Aaron Sisemore   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
>>Isn't polyester used only in release prints?<<

I have handled unmarried Estar work prints and Estar dailies, and am pretty sure that all other production stocks (except for the camera negative itself, which has to be 'breakable' in case of a potentially expensive and disastrous film jam inside of a camera) are now Estar based.

Dave W.: XXX is from Sony.

-Aaron

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Tim Reed
Better Projection Pays

Posts: 5246
From: Northampton, PA
Registered: Sep 1999


 - posted 11-04-2002 11:47 AM      Profile for Tim Reed   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Aaron, I'm sorry, that's what I meant... that negative stock wasn't polyester. Randy said everyone had switched to ultrasonic splicing, but they wouldn't have to, in order to cut the negative.

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 11-04-2002 03:16 PM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Camera original negatives are almost always on triacetate base. Negative cutters use cement splices, typically made on a classic Bell and Howell foot-operated splicer, or a heated tabletop splicer like a Maier-Hancock:
here ACVL Conforming/Splicing Tips

Duplicate negatives used for release printing use either triacetate base or polyester base. With modern high speed printing, polyester base is usually preferred by the labs. Splices between scenes are RARE in a duplicate negative:
here Kodak VISION Color Intermediate Film
here Kodak Intermediate Film Catalog

SMPTE Recommended Practice RP111 specifies the dimensions of splices, and notes the need for less overlap (dimension A) when splicing anamorphic negatives. However, some labs/negative cutters prefer the greater reliability of a slightly wider splice, which can result in visible splice lines at scene changes.

Splice lines can be completely eliminated by using A/B roll printing and "checkerboard" splicing with "zero cuts" when printing the spliced negative:
here ACVL Invisible Splice Technique

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John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: +1 585 477 5325 Cell: +1 585 781 4036 Fax: +1 585 722 7243
e-mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: here


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William Leland III
Master Film Handler

Posts: 336
From: Charleston, SC,
Registered: Aug 2002


 - posted 11-04-2002 03:49 PM      Profile for William Leland III   Author's Homepage   Email William Leland III   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
This might be what you are talking about or a different problem but certain prints we showed had "White Lines" on the top of the screen, but it happened everytime a scene changed. all we did was frame it up alittle. problem sloved. it was an annoying problem and only certain prints did this.

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