Competition for speed - f/1.4 projection lenses, how common were they?

[Johannes Schmalzl]

It seems like for a couple of decades and particularly a handful of years (perhaps the peak was around 1951 - 1956) there was a race for the fastest projection lens in the world. The most notable makers who participated in it were Bausch & Lomb (though only initially), Kollmorgen and Projection Optics from the US, Som Hermagis and Angenieux from France, Kowa from Japan and finally ISCO and Zeiss from Germany.

I've not assembled a complete timeline yet, but what I know, is that there were three different basic optical designs involved:

Petzval lenses (Angenieux, Som Hermagis)
Ernostar/Sonnar lenses (Projection Optics)
Double Gauss (ISCO, Kowa, Kollmorgen)

While the Petzval designs were impressive in their own right, I think there had been lenses with similar specs significantly earlier (I'm thinking of Emil Busch for example) the main thing were the Double Gauss lenses.

Kollmorgen had a f/1.7 line among their Super-Snaplite lenses, Projection Optics had their Hilux f/1.8 and ISCO the Super-Kiptar at f/1.6.

ISCO seems to have been first to the next step as well, when they released he Super-Kiptar S f/1.5 in 1954, topping their own f/1.6 series of lenses.

In 1956 there were ads featuring an Angenieux AX lens with a speed of f/1.4 (Petzval design however) and in the same ad the Super-Prominar series from Kowa (in shorter focal lengths only) is also mentioned with the same f/1.4 speed.

And after yet another year both Kollmorgen as well as Projection Optics announced a full range of f/1.4 Double Gauss lenses in the Super-Snaplite f/1.4 and Super-Hilux f/1.4 respectively.

Soon after it seems like all the talk about f-stops seems to have died down due to

Here are a couple of ads from the time:

Isco-Ad_SuperKiptarS2.jpg Angenieux_AX_86_Vidoscope_Ad_MotionPictureHerald_1956_04.jpg
ProjectionOptics_Ad_Super-Hilux_F1-4_1958.jpg

Because it's hard to guess how far reaching this race for speed was and if anyone even cared about all of this, I wanted to ask about your thoughts on the matter.

Were these f/1.4 models just a marketing thing? Or do you think they were produced in somewhat significant numbers, before the new generation of lenses (slower but more high-resolution and better optimized for the new demands/formats) came around?

Has anyone here ever seen a Projection Optics Super-Hilux f/1.4 or a Kollmorgen Super-Snaplite f/1.4 lens?

I know the ISCO Super-Kiptar S lenses were indeed used by a number of cinemas of the time (because they're mentioned in articles and lens tests) but I'm not sure about the other two.

Do you know of similarly fast or even faster projection lenses which I've missed? I think I've read about lenses by Taylor Hobson etc. but most of the ones I could find seem to have been TV projection lenses which is something completely different from what I understand, so they can't be compared. It looks like Wollensak, Bausch & Lomb didn't try to compete in that area, same goes for Schneider (likely because they were the parent company of ISCO at the time) and Zeiss/Emil Busch only relased fast lenses a little bit later.

I'd really appreciate the feedback because that whole thing isn't documented well from what I could find.

[Johannes Schmalzl]

It looks like Kollmorgen certainly did manage to release some really fast lenses as well. While I wasn't able to find an image of one of the f/1.4 Super Snaplites, they created a (likely custom) number of fast lenses called Snaptar 89 mm f/1.5 for RCA (projectors?) which even had a variable aperture.

In addition they also made series called B300 which was at least available in focal lengths of 120 mm f/1.5 as well as 127 mm f/1.5

All of these lenses were apparently used for something called RCA Telecine projectors. I've looked them up and it seems like they were some tools used for film to TV conversions of slides in the past (if you know the true background, please let me know), so perhaps these were indeed some kind of "superfast repro lens", more than a real cine projection one.

But regardless of their original application, they sound interesting, so if you have ever seen or used any of these, please let me know!

[Steve Guttag]

I can't claim to have seen many lenses faster than f/1.7, myself. And, once the ISCO Cinelux-Ultras came out, it was such a night/day difference in image quality to all that came before, the chain I worked for changed all of their 1.85 and Scope lenses for them. Now, those screens that supported 1.66 and 1.37, often they continued to use their Kollmorgans and whatnot. Also, B&L anamorphic adapters were not always changed out...it depends on if they had yellowed or were having issues but more often than not, an ISCO Ultra anamorphic MC was used.

The faster lenses didn't always yield the most light either. f/2 Ultras often produced more, and more even light together with a notably sharper picture. Again, it was night and day.

[Johannes Schmalzl]

I can't claim to have seen many lenses faster than f/1.7, myself. And, once the ISCO Cinelux-Ultras came out, it was such a night/day difference in image quality to all that came before, the chain I worked for changed all of their 1.85 and Scope lenses for them. Now, those screens that supported 1.66 and 1.37, often they continued to use their Kollmorgans and whatnot. Also, B&L anamorphic adapters were not always changed out...it depends on if they had yellowed or were having issues but more often than not, an ISCO Ultra anamorphic MC was used.

The faster lenses didn't always yield the most light either. f/2 Ultras often produced more, and more even light together with a notably sharper picture. Again, it was night and day.

Thank you very much. That's really interesting to hear. I guess they found ways to optimize performance apart from the speed alone... The most notable one might have been new Multi-Coating technology, because from an optical-only standpoint the Ultra MC f/2 and Cinelux-Xenon f/1.6, while being slighly re-calculated perhaps, are still extremely close to the two Super-Kiptar lens series. I still think that the main difference is the vastly improved coating technology, which allowed for completely uncemented 6 element designs.

Here's a graph from a Karl Macher article on the matter from 1980 showing the difference between coated and uncoated :

KarlMacher_NewProjectionLenses_CoatingImpact_1980.jpg

It would be great to compare one of those fast Super-Kiptar S or the Kollmorgen lenses mentioned to some of the designs that followed.

It's interesting that ISCO did indeed continue the relatively fast Cinelux-Xenon Series (f/1.6-f/1.7) for a couple of years, but it seems like there wasn't a lot of demand anymore or they were just too expensive. Unfortunately I haven't been able to locate a pricelist for that series... would be itneresting to see how much they cost compared to the Cinelux Ultra-MCs or the earlier Super-Kiptars.

[Ryan Gallagher]

Speaking of oddball lenses... what is the story with these Endalite "Spotlight" series ones? 18" if real (457mm) is an extremely narrow long throw lens.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/197490643946

Endalite18.png

For a bit of other historical weirdness... Endalite also made some precursors to laser pointers for presentation. Wall powered!

https://www.ebay.com/itm/285140486072

EndalitePointer1.pngEndalitePointer2.png

Ahh, perhaps something more photography related... I found this previously sold reference with a mount for some kind of photography related concept. Although still confusingly described as a "Camera Projector" attachment.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/167607489321

Endalite18-attachment.png

There is a goodwill listing with no photos that describes it more like a spotlight. "Vintage Large 18" Spotlight w/ EF Ednalite Lens"
https://shopgoodwill.com/item/82574301

[Johannes Schmalzl]

Speaking of oddball lenses... what is the story with these Endalite "Spotlight" series ones? 18" if real (457mm) is an extremely narrow long throw lens.


There is a goodwill listing with no photos that describes it more like a spotlight. "Vintage Large 18" Spotlight w/ EF Ednalite Lens"
https://shopgoodwill.com/item/82574301

Thanks for the interesting listings. I'm not an expert on the matter, but as far as I know lenses like that were indeed either used for lighting (thus spotlight) or stage projection/special effects (for classical theatre and musical productions) or for cine projection of large format advertising slides. Focal lengths like that are not uncommon among both of these and there were even dedicated companies who made lenses like that almost exclusively. For example: Reiche & Vogel in Germany.

I just realized that I know of another significantly faster lens series: The Meopta Stigmar lenses. The fastest ever cine projection lens (as far as I know) is the 90 mm f/1.25 Stigmar which only covers regular 35 mm and might of course have significant deficiencies there compared to slower lenses. The 110 mm f/1.5 Stigmar (while slower) should cover 35 mm easily. Not sure if that one is usable for 70 mm but I guess it could be though there are likely not many scenarios where a lens like that would be necessary.

[Paul H. Rayton]

Some of those very long projection lenses were also for old "lantern slide" projectors. The image area was HUGE (on the order of 2¼" x 3"), and they were generally known as "3¼ x4"-inch slides (for the outer dimensions of the slides themselves). Mostly, they were glass slides; often the images themselves were sheet film supported between 2 thin layers of glass, with the slide held together by tape. This size was also convenient for use with 120-size (and 220-size) photographic rolls of film, notably for color transparencies. With such large image areas, the amount of image enlargement required to fit a given screen + throw combination was much less than the enlargement required for 35mm slides, or 16mm movies, thus the significantly longer focal length(s).

When I was just starting out in this whole projection thing (circa 1960), I worked for Dartmouth College in New Hampshire, and we frequently would be projecting these glass slides for Architecture classes, as well as some in the sciences (Botany, Biology, etc.). Such images were really great because they would be able to handle plenty of light, and could put extraordinary detail on the screen, ideal for seeing the tiny characteristics of (e.g.) Baroque building design, for example. Professors wouldn't show slides every day, but when they wanted one, they'd schedule it with us at the college's AV department. And I'd get dispatched to some of these shows, getting a head start on advanced studies.

The projectors were a bit bulky, so mostly we left them in situ, but we'd sometimes have to move things around if for some reason there was to be a special event requiring projection. We had quite an assortment of lenses, from maybe 8" through 20" or so, for the various screens and throw distances. Mostly these classes requiring the slides were presented in proper lecture halls that had some semblance of a bespoke projection room and an ability for the room to be darkened. There were 2 primary venues for these shows. IIRC, one had no projection port glass and no P.A. system -- so we'd have to listen carefully for the presenter to verbally ask for the "next slide, please". Kept you on your toes! No such thing as "carousels" for these slides, either -- the professors would bring in a big(-ish) box, weighted down with all that glass, and the show would be one-at-a-time, and pay attention to which way is up! I don't have any original glass slides around any more myself; I imagine most all of them at colleges and universities have now been copied to other media for projection.

[Johannes Schmalzl]

Some of those very long projection lenses were also for old "lantern slide" projectors. The image area was HUGE (on the order of 2¼" x 3"), and they were generally known as "3¼ x4"-inch slides (for the outer dimensions of the slides themselves). Mostly, they were glass slides; often the images themselves were sheet film supported between 2 thin layers of glass, with the slide held together by tape. This size was also convenient for use with 120-size (and 220-size) photographic rolls of film, notably for color transparencies. With such large image areas, the amount of image enlargement required to fit a given screen + throw combination was much less than the enlargement required for 35mm slides, or 16mm movies, thus the significantly longer focal length(s).

When I was just starting out in this whole projection thing (circa 1960), I worked for Dartmouth College in New Hampshire, and we frequently would be projecting these glass slides for Architecture classes, as well as some in the sciences (Botany, Biology, etc.). Such images were really great because they would be able to handle plenty of light, and could put extraordinary detail on the screen, ideal for seeing the tiny characteristics of (e.g.) Baroque building design, for example. Professors wouldn't show slides every day, but when they wanted one, they'd schedule it with us at the college's AV department. And I'd get dispatched to some of these shows, getting a head start on advanced studies.

The projectors were a bit bulky, so mostly we left them in situ, but we'd sometimes have to move things around if for some reason there was to be a special event requiring projection. We had quite an assortment of lenses, from maybe 8" through 20" or so, for the various screens and throw distances. Mostly these classes requiring the slides were presented in proper lecture halls that had some semblance of a bespoke projection room and an ability for the room to be darkened. There were 2 primary venues for these shows. IIRC, one had no projection port glass and no P.A. system -- so we'd have to listen carefully for the presenter to verbally ask for the "next slide, please". Kept you on your toes! No such thing as "carousels" for these slides, either -- the professors would bring in a big(-ish) box, weighted down with all that glass, and the show would be one-at-a-time, and pay attention to which way is up! I don't have any original glass slides around any more myself; I imagine most all of them at colleges and universities have now been copied to other media for projection.

Thank you - that's interesting to hear! I've been wondering how they were used for lectures and such. I've read quite a bit about such educational projectors & lanterns in old magazines (in Germany Liesegang seems to have made quite a lot of these and in the US Projection Optics produced them, particularly after they had been bought by Beseler). Sounds like some were high-grade devices, but also a lot of work to use and maintain.

[Ryan Gallagher]

The theatre world also used lantern style glass slides for effects and in lieu of painted drops at times, among other uses. The Brenkert "Brenograph" is an example of a later model with lots of features, but there were tons of predecessors. You can find those slides (in various conditions) on ebay still. I remember being shown some in theatre history classes and lighting classes in college, but never seen one projected in original equipment. UT's Harry Ransom Center has an extensive theatre collection and probably has some. One of our old spotlights is in their collection.

[Thomas J. Mathiesen]

I happened upon this response and thought some readers of this thread might be interested in the 60-page booklet I published in 2017 on the Brenkert Light Projection Company and the Brenograph. It's available for free reading or download as a PDF and for purchase in print form. Links to all these options are available at https://fwembassytheatre.org/about-u...ric-brenograph, the page devoted to the brenograph and the collection of 5000+ slides for the machine at the Embassy Theatre in Fort Wayne, IN. This page also has links to catalogues of the collection, which includes more than 300 of the larger 5"x4" effects slides produced by Workstel, Brenkert, and a few other companies especially for use on the brenograph. The original brenograph in the booth at the Embassy is fully operational and also has twelve of the motorized effects. There is also a second brenograph on display in the theatre's history room where visitors can actually see and handle this extraordinary machine. The brenograph is used only occasionally because the theatre does not have a staff projectionist or anyone with experience in operating the machine. But it was used for the 90th anniversary show in 2018 when I trained a couple of members of the staff who operated it for the show.
If anyone has specific questions about the brenograph or the slides, I will be happy to respond. I'm not a regular on the film-tech forums, but I assume the site will notify me somehow or other if there are responses to this posting. I'm not sure if posting my email address is allowed, but I'll be glad to do that if it's allowed and anyone would like to have it.

[Ryan Gallagher]

I happened upon this response and thought some readers of this thread might be interested in the 60-page booklet I published in 2017 on the Brenkert Light Projection Company and the Brenograph. It's available for free reading or download as a PDF and for purchase in print form. Links to all these options are available at https://fwembassytheatre.org/about-u...ric-brenograph, the page devoted to the brenograph and the collection of 5000+ slides for the machine at the Embassy Theatre in Fort Wayne, IN. This page also has links to catalogues of the collection, which includes more than 300 of the larger 5"x4" effects slides produced by Workstel, Brenkert, and a few other companies especially for use on the brenograph. The original brenograph in the booth at the Embassy is fully operational and also has twelve of the motorized effects. There is also a second brenograph on display in the theatre's history room where visitors can actually see and handle this extraordinary machine. The brenograph is used only occasionally because the theatre does not have a staff projectionist or anyone with experience in operating the machine. But it was used for the 90th anniversary show in 2018 when I trained a couple of members of the staff who operated it for the show.
If anyone has specific questions about the brenograph or the slides, I will be happy to respond. I'm not a regular on the film-tech forums, but I assume the site will notify me somehow or other if there are responses to this posting. I'm not sure if posting my email address is allowed, but I'll be glad to do that if it's allowed and anyone would like to have it.

Great resource! This one is also in Indiana... related to the Embassy?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/157301454937

Our venue used to have two also, wish they were still around... but alas no room in the tiny booth anymore for such things, the film equipment took their place back in the day. That listing is too rich for my blood anyhoo, will have to visit the Embassy sometime.

[Thomas J. Mathiesen]

The one on eBay is not related to the Embassy. Judging from the location of the item (Whiting, IN), I think this could be the Brenograph from the Chicago Uptown Theatre inasmuch as the person who purchased the Uptown's organ (organ enthusiasts are often also interested in the Brenograph) eventually moved it the Hoosier Theatre, although it was never installed there. I guess it could be original to the Hoosier Theatre, but if so, it could not have been installed until its manufacture in 1928 (indicated by the serial number), four years after the theatre opened. Given the small size of the Hoosier Theatre, it would more probably have had one of the much smaller projectors manufactured by the Chicago Cinema Equipment Co. or the Brenkert F2. Wherever it came from, the pictures show that all the wiring has been removed, the little motors that run the automatic arc feeds are missing on both units, and the two canisters that would have contained motorized effects (they appear to be too large for the color wheels) are empty (and in the wrong slots). On the other hand, the pictures also show three or four (maybe five) of the engraved glass scene plates (these are quite scarce), eight of the ten original glass pattern plates, the star shutter, two iris frames, holders for 3.25"x4" and 4"x5" slides and a 3.25"x4: slide transport (but only one of each; two are needed); and one water-filled effect I have not seen before. Brenographs do come up for sale every so often, but I have never seen one advertised (or sold) for such a high price.

[Johannes Schmalzl]

I happened upon this response and thought some readers of this thread might be interested in the 60-page booklet I published in 2017 on the Brenkert Light Projection Company and the Brenograph. It's available for free reading or download as a PDF and for purchase in print form. Links to all these options are available at https://fwembassytheatre.org/about-u...ric-brenograph, the page devoted to the brenograph and the collection of 5000+ slides for the machine at the Embassy Theatre in Fort Wayne, IN. This page also has links to catalogues of the collection, which includes more than 300 of the larger 5"x4" effects slides produced by Workstel, Brenkert, and a few other companies especially for use on the brenograph. The original brenograph in the booth at the Embassy is fully operational and also has twelve of the motorized effects. There is also a second brenograph on display in the theatre's history room where visitors can actually see and handle this extraordinary machine. The brenograph is used only occasionally because the theatre does not have a staff projectionist or anyone with experience in operating the machine. But it was used for the 90th anniversary show in 2018 when I trained a couple of members of the staff who operated it for the show.
If anyone has specific questions about the brenograph or the slides, I will be happy to respond. I'm not a regular on the film-tech forums, but I assume the site will notify me somehow or other if there are responses to this posting. I'm not sure if posting my email address is allowed, but I'll be glad to do that if it's allowed and anyone would like to have it.

Wow - thanks a lot for that detailed writeup. That‘s very interesting. I‘ve been looking into early stage projection a couple of weeks ago (cloud projectors, weather effects, animated stage backgrounds etc.) and it‘s always fascinating reading about these complicated and overall short-lived machines and how they worked.

Why were the lenses taken from them? Were they usable for something else in terms of cine projection? Weren‘t they too long for that?

[Thomas J. Mathiesen]

There are twelve lenses on a Brenograph: two condenser lenses in each lamphouse and four projection lenses in each turret at the front of the machine. The condensers are usually plano-convex, but sometimes one of them is a meniscus. The turret lenses (depending on the focal length) are plano-convex or double convex. The plano-convex lenses can be used for magnifying glasses; the double-convex to concentrate light, useful for making lighting fixtures for workbenches; and meniscus lenses can be used with laser cutting devices. I suppose sometimes people took the lenses to use in one of these ways, and sometimes they may have needed a replacement lens for another Brenograph, but I suspect most of the time people who took them were simply motivated by the idea "maybe someday I can use this!" There's not much else on the machine, except perhaps the arc motor control and the motors themselves, that would be worth stealing.