Introducing 35mm to our theater

[Griffen Birdsong]

Hello all,

I'd like to share with you my vision for our theater. Please move this topic if not in the correct spot. I would love to hear your feedback and guidance.

This is my first "real" post to the forums. Our beautiful theater was built in 2013, seats 315, and is a part of a library system. Our mission is to showcase various films to the public that isn't normally available. We do not show first run films, but rather oldie but goodie type of content. We also work with local film makers, or anyone in our community who'd like to show their film. Since joining the team at the theater, it has been a personal goal of ours to reintroduce 35mm to the area. So far it's been a bit of a struggle to find any equipment, and we're currently in a blue sky phase of the project.

What I'd like to do is wall off the current entrance to the theater, transforming the vestibule into a projection booth. (Check out the drawing in the photos) I'd relocate the theater entrance by creating two entrances at the back of house left and right instead of one. That would create a space roughly 7'x20' for two reel to reel projectors, and perhaps a platter system (if room allows). Directly above this space is the actual tech booth where the sound console and rack lives. We currently have a Dolby CP750. Would anyone be able to tell me the capabilities the processor has for 35mm? For ventilation, we would tap into the existing system used for the Barco. We currently have a Barco DP2K-15C tucked away in a small room that has to be accessed through a trap door in the vestibule ceiling as you can see from the photos below.

We're on the hunt for 2 identical projectors to perform changeover with a xenon lamp house. I've scowered across the state for any theaters who have any equipment lying around and all I've heard are crickets. I've also been monitoring the forum and E-bay too. I'm certainly no expert regarding 35mm, but I enjoy a challenge and especially the opportunity to learn a skill of showmanship. I am open ears to any suggestions, feedback, or concerns you may have of this idea. Tell me what you might would do if this was your theater! I am very grateful to have the ability to reach out to the experts on this forum, and enjoy learning from each of you.

Thank you,
Griffen

[Rich Haddard]

Griffen,
I've got a pair of early 70's Century SA machines and the audio rack from a booth I bought 25 years ago that you can have but you would need to arrange their transport from New York State. PM me if interested.

[Marcel Birgelen]

Your theater looks like a great place to view a movie. Would love to see some more detailed images.

Finding someone who can maintain and operate 35mm installs may be a challenge, but you may have come to the right place to find someone in your neck of the woods. I'm also sure there will be at least someone on this forum that can direct you to a bunch of 35mm equipment.

As for your CP750... that machine, unfortunately, is a digital only machine. If you want to do 35mm audio, you'll be looking at older vintages like the CP650 and CP500 if you want to do Dolby SR-D. Both have long been end-of-life, but can still be acquired via the right channels. The only current audio processor that still supports 35mm film is the Datasat AP25 with the H338 board installed, although that processor only supports analog audio from film, so no SR-D.

[Griffen Birdsong]

Thank you, Marcel. I know of a few contacts a few hours away, but have yet to hear back from them. Like you said, hopefully this forum can shed some light on people in my area.

I figured we would require the CP650, and I had put it on my ever growing shopping list of equipment. I just wasn't sure if the 750 had any capability too. Thank you very much for your insight it is very helpful.

Here's a few more pictures of the space:

[Leo Enticknap]

The company I work for currently has used (but bench tested and confirmed OK) CP650s available - email sales {at} movingimagetech.com if interested. However, availability does vary: we could sell all the ones we have tomorrow and then not acquire any others for several months, or we could receive another 10 on an upgrade trade-in and not have any customers for them for months. Your best bet would likely be to take the main analog output of the 650 into the analog input of the 750 and just use the 650 for film, as this would be least disruptive to your current audio system.

A significant challenge is going to be getting hold of prints. There are now essentially four sources for 35mm movies:

• The major nonprofit archives (UCLA, Library of Congress, etc.)
• The Hollywood studio archives
• A small niche of arthouse distributors that still offer prints (e.g. Criterion/Janus, Milestone)
• Private film collectors

Pretty much all of these sources will need serious convincing that (a) the projectors and all equipment used in film handling is maintained in near new condition, and (b) that all projectionists who will be handling the film are trained to archival standards and with significant experience in the job. They will also likely require you to carry insurance to cover the cost of replacing any damaged prints. More importantly, you'll need a booker or other contact who has relationships with these organizations, and can convince them to let prints out to you. In some cases, you will also need to arrange the loan of the print and the screening license for the movie from the rights owner as two separate transactions. Nonprofit archives and private collectors, for example, do not own or control the copyright to most of the titles in their collections.

[Sam Chavez]

Welcome to our forum Griffen. There are 35mm projectors all over the place. The trick is to find a pair of identical ones complete and working with no parts missing. You'll need lamps and film handling equipment such as rewinds and reels. Platters are languishing as well.

CP650's are plentiful and I still have brand new ones in stock. You do need someone local to put it all together and maintain them as well. We all can tell
you what and whom to avoid. Your space is pretty tight for a platter but not impossible. Most are 52 inches diameter plus room for the control tower as well as a film make up table and room to walk around for threading and maintenance.

Good luck on your venture.

[Mark Gulbrandsen]

Please note that you may just want to put in two film projectors and scrap the platter idea. With some studio prints that are circulated, you are not allowed to cut off the heads and tails. So platterizing them is forbidden. I'd be more inclined to move the Barco into the booth and get it out of the trap door hole in the wall thing. I've worked on those types of installations and they are a big PIA.

[Griffen Birdsong]

Thank you all for your information.

Leo, do you know of anyone offering 35mm training or "Sprocket School"? I know the Chicago Film Society offers a two day course, but it's focused exclusively on handling archival prints. https://www.chicagofilmsociety.org/equipment-parts/

I will say we do share the building with university archivists who handle film, tapes, documents, etc. Perhaps it might be worth to get in touch with them to see if they potentially have any prints. I always see a stack of 8mm/16mm films sitting on their tables.

Has anyone worked with CFS for consultation in the past? They seem to be a really great resource.

As far as projectors, I know one source with a plethora of Kinoton FP 50Ds from a multiplex. However, it's like watching paint dry trying to hear back from people who have them (crickets!). I don't seem to see anyone using that particular model today, is that because that particular model or manufacturer of projector handles film too rough? That is the only projector I have personal experience with, and that was last year. I used to go up to the booth and teach myself how to make up prints, repair, and thread them through the system when I was alone or it was a super slow day. I really enjoyed doing that!

I will agree with you Sam and Mark, I also think it will be a super tight squeeze with a platter system. I might end up sticking with just a reel to reel system. The trap door is indeed a PIA! Dropping it down from that space and into one main booth would certainly make access a breeze. I'm not sure who came up with the idea to put that particular trap door "booth" in the theater, but I'd like to meet em'!

Thank you all!

[Mark Gulbrandsen]

Note, that if you have to leave the digital projector where it is now that Christie made a smaller version of the Autowind called the Mini-Wind platter. I think it had 42" decks or there about. I was forced to use mini-winds at one location because of local clearance code for the small booth size and they ran just fine. But you were limited as to the run time. I can't remember if it held 6 or 7 reels of film. Anyway, just a thought... If you can even find one. Not sure who the CFS is that you refer to, but there used to be a company called Cinema Film Systems out in CA. They imported Indian made copies of the Century projector that were kind of ho-hum. IF you got a good one they were fine though. Be sure to use a reputable dealer Like Cardinal Sound or BACP... Sam Chavez. You do not want to end up with just any Century or Simplex projector!!

[John Eickhof]

im with mark on this one, a platter system would be overkill and most archive prints are restricted to changeover type reel to reel systems, thus a nice pair of simplex xl or centurys would be the ticket, i prefer the rca or simplex soundheads as they run a floating sound loop unlike the century r3 and simplex 5-star that uses a tight loop thus eliminating strain on the film and the simplex has larger feed sprockets making them less apt to damage film. all types can be had for next to nothing and most have already been fitted for reverse scan and led sound pickup, be sure the xenon lamphouses are a fairly matched pair like strong super lume-x or super 80 (depends on screen size) and high quality reel arms like kelmar as well as rewind / inspection table. sadly, a matched pair of new simplexes and strong 4 kw consoles i installed new at uc davis in northern california, just went to scrap, they tried for three years to give them away! they had less that 6 total hours on them ! (yes SIX HOURS!) i will keep a look out for another pair for you...good luck

[Mike Blakesley]

We still have our film equipment, mostly 1980 vintage, that you would be welcome to. I would just like to get it out of here. It has been sitting behind our screen for about 10 years and was all working fine when we decommissioned it.

I know you want two projectors and we only have one, but there were a zillion of these Simplexes made so there are probably more out there. If you are interested in any of it, you would need to come to Montana to pick it up since I don't really have a way to ship the big/heavy stuff. Let me know if you want more details. Pictures (from when we installed all of it) can be seen at these two links. Note that the mono sound system that hangs on the back of the lamphouse is no longer there, we replaced it when we went to stereo sound.

http://www.roxytheatre.net/pages/Pro...th/booth2.html
http://www.roxytheatre.net/pages/Pro...th/booth3.html

[Jim Cassedy]

That's a very nice looking auditorium!
I run quite a bit of 35 & 70mm film in the venue I'm at in San Francisco. (3 or 4 shows a week)
For film sound, I think a CP-650 is your best bet. They show up quite often on e-bay, and
although they are no longer made, there are enough of them around that parts are not too
hard to find. I just recently had to replace a flakey power switch in one here. We have an
extra one we got pretty cheap that I keep for parts, and I even have a spare at home as
a worst-case back-up. Also, if you are thinking of running older prints, the CP-650-s will
allow you to play back other formats you're going to run into. In the past two weeks I've
run prints that were 'mono', 'Dolby-A" 'Dolby-SR' & Dolby DIgital. The CP-650 does all
those & even handles old 70mm magnetic sound prints, which we can play here.

But, big 'issue' I see on your floor plans is the word PLATTER!!!. As Leo & Mark both pointed
out, many archives, studio libraries, and even some private collectors will not their prints to be
run on platters. Which means two projectors- - and a projectionist who can stay in the booth &
run a show.

Also, if you are going to be running "vintage' content, you're going to need lenses and
aperture plates for all the current & legacy aspect ratios. If money is tight, you can start off
with the standard "FLAT" & "SCOPE" lenses & plates, and pick up the others later, if you
intend to show the films as they were intended by their makers. That goes for playing
back the proper sound formats too. Many of the people who come to these shows are
cinema aficionados who are coming coming specifically for the opportunity to see a
program ON FILM- - and you'll hear from them if it isn't projected right.

- - which brings me back to one more point. A big part of my job in running these retro
film shows is being able to properly identify. the various aspect ratios & sound formats
on the prints. I've found many times that the info somebody scribbled on the leaders or
cans is incorrect. IMDB is also often a wealth of mis-information about the the technical
properties of some titles. Just last night, I had a film labeled as "FLAT- 1:85" and yet I
could clearly see during inspection on the bench that there was no way this was right.
I spoke with the programmer who said it was listed as 1:85 on IMDB, but I told him that
in spite of IMDB, I was going to run it at 1:37. After the film he confirmed I made the right
choice. An early 1980's film I ran last week was labeled as "MONO on all the reels, but
on bench inspection, I could clearly see the sound tracks were stereo- - and from
experience & some general knowledge of film-sound time lines, and knowing when the
film was originally released, I knew it was going to be a "Dolby-A" Stereo (Format 4) print,
which I later confirmed with several online sources.

A BIG part of my job, as a full-time projection-guy both at my home venue and various FILM
festivals I' work at, has been properly identifying print aspect ratios & sound formats.

I am in no way trying to discourage you,, but I just want to point out that a lot of people don't
realize that here's a lot more to "this stuff" than just installing a couple of projectors & threading
up some film you got from somewhere, as a lot of the long time projectionists here can tell you.
But good luck, no matter what you decide to do!

[Leo Enticknap]

there used to be a company called Cinema Film Systems out in CA. They imported Indian made copies of the Century projector that were kind of ho-hum.

Monee? Long time since I've heard that name.

Leo, do you know of anyone offering 35mm training or "Sprocket School"? I know the Chicago Film Society offers a two day course, but it's focused exclusively on handling archival prints.

That is pretty much the only type of film print now left (which, as others point out, is why you'll have little if any use for a platter). At one point, the Association of Moving Image Archivists, working with Boston Light and Sound, also offered some kind of training - a short residential course, if I remember correctly. But essentially, what little film projection training still takes place is on the job and concentrated in the few arthouses and cinematheques that still play film prints regularly.

[Vern Dias]

35mm film installations usually require venting the lamp houses to the outside world, and the booth is most likely to require it's own HVAC system.

Since you can't splice archival prints, you will be running 2000' reels requiring a changeover every 20 minutes or less which means a full time projectionist will be required to be in the booth at all times.

Film breaks, take up belts and clutches fail, loops are lost due to film damage, and there are a number of other bad things can happen. These can all lead to (additional) print damage. This is particularly critical when you are running archival prints.

You will also require a film inspection bench and a rewind. All prints you will run will require a manual inspection to identify and document any previous damage.

In short, you are going to require the services of an experienced professional projectionist.

So, unless you are committed to meet these requirements, I would suggest you stay away from film.

One other consideration: Since vintage Eastman color prints fade, 4 track Mag prints are almost non-existent, and DTS CD's are also scarce, in most instances you will likely get a superior overall customer experience running a Blu-ray up-scaled to 4K with its multi-channel audio track (assuming you can get a clearance to present it).

[Gunter Oehme]

I want to comment on another aspect of the conversion.
The space to be used as the 35mil projection booth is currently a vestibule that works as a sound and light lock between the lobby and the auditorium. This avoids that late arriving patrons may disturb the audience.
In the drawing there is only a single door between the lobby and the auditorium. Any opening of the doors during the show might disturb the audience especially of light falls onto the screen.
You should consider adding double doors vestibules on each entrance.