Film-Tech Cinema Systems
Film-Tech Forum


Post New Topic  Post A Reply
my profile | my password | register | search | faq & rules | forum home
  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» Film-Tech Forum   » Operations   » Film Handlers' Forum   » 'Bobby Jones' shedding problem? (Page 2)

 
This topic comprises 3 pages: 1  2  3 
 
Author Topic: 'Bobby Jones' shedding problem?
Gary Crawford
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 200
From: Neptune NJ USA
Registered: Nov 2003


 - posted 05-05-2004 11:56 AM      Profile for Gary Crawford   Email Gary Crawford   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Wow, I never had shedding like that.

The prints I get that shed seem to be non-Kodak, and the shedded fluff is dark in color, and certainly not enough to fill up the heads like that.

That almost looks like your intermitent sprocket is punching new holes, or at least making them bigger.

 |  IP: Logged

Thomas Procyk
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1842
From: Royal Palm Beach, FL, USA
Registered: Feb 2002


 - posted 05-05-2004 12:10 PM      Profile for Thomas Procyk   Email Thomas Procyk   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
You call that shedding?!? BAH!

You should see our projector(s) after they run some of the used prints we get. Not dust, more like flakes. All different colored flakes. Blue, purple, red... After a week, we cleaned up enough debris to equal three fistfulls!

FilmGuard helps a LOT in these situations, but by the time we get these prints, they're so messed up that it only reduces the flaking, but doesn't eliminate it. Media pads come off with SHEETS of the stuff. Luckily, so far it's only been with shitty movies that we lose after a week. (maybe they're printing the shitty movies on shitty stock?)

And as for Dan Lyons's comment about the rust, that's actually not bad at all for a Florida booth. You should see our Cinemeccanicas that sat in an unairconditioned booth for 2 years when GCC closed. Seems like everything gets a "tan" one way or another in this state! [Razz]

=TMP=

 |  IP: Logged

Randy Stankey
Film God

Posts: 6426
From: Erie, Pennsylvania
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 05-05-2004 02:30 PM      Profile for Randy Stankey   Email Randy Stankey   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
That's not your average shedding print. Something's wrong with your projector, I say.

Check your gate, shoe, trap alignment, your sprockets, pad rollers and all of that stuff. Start at the payout platter and follow the film all the way through the system, back to the takeup platter.

Here's where it gets funky: That damage could have been caused by somebody else's fuck up. (Misthread, etc.) Now you have this "snow" all over the print. Every time you run the film the action of the projector will "fling" the dust everywhere. It will actually look like it's snowing in your booth! This problem will continue for as long as you have that print, even if you take the print to another projector. Running the print through a film cleaner and/or FilmGuard may help the problem but it will always be there to some degree.

After a while, if the damage wasn't severe AND if the projector is in good working order, the problem will quiet down. It may eventually seem to go away. If this happens to you then you can assume that the damage was a one time thing.

If the problem stays the same or gets worse, the damage wasn't a one time thing. If a different print played through the same projector starts showing the same symptoms then it's a problem in the projector.

Concentrate your search on the gate area. Common culprits are damaged or broken pressure bands. Also look at the shoe to see if it's installed properly and doesn't have any nicks in it. Closing pressure and/or alignment of the shoe with the trap are also good places to look.

Next, look at the intermittent and the intermittent pad shoe. Look for the same kinds of things: Broken, damaged, missing or misaligned parts.

One more thing you can do is to take a look at the film under bright light. With film that is damaged that badly you will probably be able to see the damage on the film. Where is the damage?

Because the "snow" in your projector isn't colored but is almost snow white I'm going to guess it's on the base side. (Just a guess.)

 |  IP: Logged

John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 05-05-2004 04:10 PM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Was the projector causing such severe shedding on other prints, just before you played the problem "Bobby Jones" print?

 |  IP: Logged

Dennis Benjamin
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1425
From: Denton, MD
Registered: Feb 2002


 - posted 05-05-2004 04:38 PM      Profile for Dennis Benjamin   Author's Homepage   Email Dennis Benjamin   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Obviously it is the film stock.

I remember when Schindler's List opened - there was a similar problem with all the theatres that were running it.

Thank God for Film-Guard!

 |  IP: Logged

Steve Scott
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1300
From: Minneapolis, MN
Registered: Sep 2000


 - posted 05-05-2004 07:02 PM      Profile for Steve Scott   Email Steve Scott   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Nothing abnormal about our Bobby Jones print. When I used to work with Christies, the most common source of shedding was the sprockets. I would check out how close the pad roller is to the sprocket teeth. On the Centuries I run now, this is the most common reason why a print would shed. I don't remember if the gate rails can be aligned on the Christies, but if one rail is slightly offset at the top or bottom I've seen shedding occur there too in our SA's.

 |  IP: Logged

Bruk Mogos
Film Handler

Posts: 19
From: USA
Registered: Nov 2003


 - posted 05-05-2004 08:31 PM      Profile for Bruk Mogos   Email Bruk Mogos   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Derek,the problem you are having is coming from dirty film gate and tension bands&film trap, you need to clean this using WD40 and thute brush,this will remove all the residue and clean any dried film wax,then use the regular cleaner to lube every thing. as most of the print theye are coated with wax,the bad residue on the film trap is scraching the wax off the print and that's why you see all that snow on your projector.So one again is not the print.Let me know if this works.

 |  IP: Logged

Mark J. Marshall
Film God

Posts: 3184
From: New Castle, DE, USA
Registered: Aug 2002


 - posted 05-05-2004 08:56 PM      Profile for Mark J. Marshall     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Dennis Benjamin
I remember when Schindler's List opened - there was a similar problem with all the theatres that were running it.
I know the Black and White prints had that problem, but I seem to remember there were color stock prints around too... did they have the same problem? I know we also had that problem with "Ed Wood" - also B&W. That's why I always thought that black and white stock is more prone to shedding problems. Maybe I'm wrong on that.

Edit: Fixed stupid broken sentence mistake.

[ 05-05-2004, 10:20 PM: Message edited by: Mark J. Marshall ]

 |  IP: Logged

John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 05-05-2004 09:06 PM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Back when "Schindler's List" and "Ed Wood" were released, the Kodak B&W print stock used definitely needed to be lubricated after processing, per SMPTE Recommended Practice RP151 and Kodak's H-24.02 processing specifications. I recall that the early prints of "Schindler's List" were not lubricated by the lab, but later B&W silver image prints did receive "TomaKote" treatment.

Kodak has since added more lubricant to the film itself (can't add too much, or the big rolls of raw stock become too loose to handle without dishing), but post process lubrication will always provide additional protection against projector abrasion, and is still recommended for all prints by SMPTE RP151.

Bruk: Derek's photo certainly looks like polyester debris from the base side of the film. I've seen it before.

Kodak invested over $200 million to build a new base making machine for VISION Color Print Film to add a special proprietary anti-static scratch-resistant coating to reduce projector abrasion and "static cling":

http://www.kodak.com/country/US/en/motion/newsletters/inCamera/fall98/print.shtml

quote:
Both new print films incorporate major advances in the science of emulsion design and manufacturing technologies. They are both coated on a rugged, new, more durable polyester base material manufactured by Kodak in a state-of-the-art factory...

...prints stay cleaner, resist scratches better and are more durable. This will enhance the movie-going experience...

...The new process-surviving antistat technology will greatly reduce the propensity for dirt attraction in theatrical projection."



 |  IP: Logged

Derek Miner
Film Handler

Posts: 10
From: Clearwater, FL, USA
Registered: Apr 2004


 - posted 05-05-2004 09:55 PM      Profile for Derek Miner   Author's Homepage   Email Derek Miner   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I really appeciate everyone's comments. Of course, nobody wants things to go wrong in the booth, but at least this gives me an opportunity to learn. I was just told to clean up after each show. It didn't seem to me that anyone considered faulty hardware. I'll be sure to inspect the gate, pad rollers and sprockets next time I'm up there.

 |  IP: Logged

Randy Stankey
Film God

Posts: 6426
From: Erie, Pennsylvania
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 05-05-2004 11:13 PM      Profile for Randy Stankey   Email Randy Stankey   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Bruk;

You're joking, right?!

If I caught somebody doing that to my projectors I'd cross-wire his testicles through the ignitor circuit and repeatedly press the manual strike button to the beat of the song, "Were You Born An Asshole?"

 |  IP: Logged

Mike Olpin
Chop Chop!

Posts: 1852
From: Dallas, TX
Registered: Jan 2002


 - posted 05-06-2004 03:45 AM      Profile for Mike Olpin   Email Mike Olpin   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
FWIW, I also work in a Chrisite booth, and I noticed that Bobby Jones is sheding a lot as well. Not to the extent of your picture, but enough to get my attention.

[ 05-06-2004, 01:31 PM: Message edited by: Mike Olpin ]

 |  IP: Logged

Carl Martin
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1395
From: Oakland, CA, USA
Registered: Feb 2002


 - posted 05-06-2004 05:05 AM      Profile for Carl Martin   Author's Homepage   Email Carl Martin   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
scott, godsend's on 2383 as well. we have print #1 of robot stories. no note in the can.

my feeling is that the weather (increased temp/humidity) is probably responsible for the reappearance of dirt in our gates. nothing like the severity of derek's case, though.

carl

 |  IP: Logged

Stephen Furley
Film God

Posts: 3057
From: Coulsdon, Croydon, England
Registered: May 2002


 - posted 05-06-2004 06:14 AM      Profile for Stephen Furley   Email Stephen Furley   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I ran Schlindler's List just once, on a Kinoton FP-20 with a cinemeccanica tower. I'm almost certain that the black and white sections were on Agfa triacetate stock. I know for certain that the trailer was. I didn't notice what stock the colour sections were on. Had no problems running it. I don't think I've ever run a black and white polyester print.

Are Agfa still making motion picture stocks? I was told that they had pulled out of this market, but I don't know if this is correct.

 |  IP: Logged

Richard Fowler
Film God

Posts: 2389
From: Ft. Lauderdale, FL, USA
Registered: Jun 2001


 - posted 05-06-2004 07:28 AM      Profile for Richard Fowler   Email Richard Fowler   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Agfa is still very much into print stock and soundtrack recording film.

 |  IP: Logged



All times are Central (GMT -6:00)
This topic comprises 3 pages: 1  2  3 
 
Post New Topic  Post A Reply Close Topic    Move Topic    Delete Topic    next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:



Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.3.1.2

The Film-Tech Forums are designed for various members related to the cinema industry to express their opinions, viewpoints and testimonials on various products, services and events based upon speculation, personal knowledge and factual information through use, therefore all views represented here allow no liability upon the publishers of this web site and the owners of said views assume no liability for any ill will resulting from these postings. The posts made here are for educational as well as entertainment purposes and as such anyone viewing this portion of the website must accept these views as statements of the author of that opinion and agrees to release the authors from any and all liability.

© 1999-2018 Film-Tech Cinema Systems, LLC. All rights reserved.