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Topic: Audio CAP on Indy

Mark Lensenmayer
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1055
From: Columbus, OH
Registered: Sep 1999

posted 05-28-2008 09:28 PM

At 12:27pm on 5/27, this topic came up on the widely read BOING-BOING blog and this Film-Tech thread has been referenced, with instructions on how to get here directly. Might be quite a bit of traffic trying to get in here for awhile...Boing-Boing has a VERY large readership.

You can read the current Boing-Boing thread here .

[ 05-29-2008, 06:59 AM: Message edited by: Mark Lensenmayer ]

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John Wilson
Film God

Posts: 2538
From: Sydney, Australia. 8602 m (13844 km) SW of Rockwall. Don't forget your swimmers!
Registered: Dec 1999

posted 05-28-2008 10:00 PM

I thought this one was good on the Boing-Boing forum...

>>Lucas already has the winning formula for keeping people from pirating his movies - make sure they suck ass.<<

[thumbsup]

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Joe Redifer
You need a beating today

Posts: 8650
From: Denver, Colorado
Registered: May 99

posted 05-29-2008 01:03 AM

quote: Mark Lensenmayer
the widely red BOING-BOING blog

Too bad it isn't widely read, or we might be able to make some more noise about this issue. [Wink]

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Mark Lensenmayer
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1055
From: Columbus, OH
Registered: Sep 1999

posted 05-29-2008 06:59 AM

OK, Joe, I've read that "red" is not correct in that post, so now you can read "read" as it is supposed to be read.

Happy reading!

Anyway, they can't really deny there is a problem, as photographic proof exists, but I don't see them admitting that anti-piracy has anything to do with it. So, here is a sample of what I expect to see soon from some low-level PR person at Paramount...

quote:
Paramount Pictures is deeply concerned about reports of sound problems with the recent release of INDIANA JONES AND THE KINGDOM OF THE CRYSTAL SKULL. First quality presentation of our releases is extremely important to us, and anything that disturbs our patrons is not acceptable. Paramount's Senior Engineering staff have looked into the problem, and have discovered that one of our laboratory partners used a slightly damaged master print. Our lab has isolated the problem, and has assured us that this problem will not happen again. The sound dropouts were not intentional and not part of any anti-piracy campaign.
We apologize to anyone whose enjoyment of INDIANA JONES AND THE KINGDOM OF THE CRYSTAL SKULL was interrupted by this minor problem, and we assure all of our patrons that we take their moviegoing experience seriously.

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David Zylstra
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 243
From: Novi, MI, USA
Registered: Mar 2007

posted 05-29-2008 08:42 AM

Through our booker we received an email admitting that the drop outs are due to a "security watermark". This same email also states that the problem is not with the print but with "...the settings on your projector(s)", it goes on to say that the effects can be corrected by "properly re-balancing the audio levels between Digital and Analog". It also says that if your tech people need further assistance to contact Deluxe.

So instead of putting out a quality product, Paramount put audio watermarks on their prints KNOWING that many theatres will have sound issues (not to mention it is the theatre staff that gets blamed by the customers who notice the sound issue and not Paramount).

I'm told digital contains audio watermarking as well, but supposedly it is more subtle - I'm going to have to watch IJ4 in digital again to see if I can pick it out.

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Blaine Young
Master Film Handler

Posts: 393
From: Kirkland, WA, USA
Registered: Sep 2006

posted 05-29-2008 10:40 AM

Here is the referenced email. We received this on Wednesday from Paramount...

quote:
It has come to our attention that some theatres are experiencing multiple sound drops on Reel 5 of INDIANA JONES. If any of your theatres are experiencing this “problem” be aware that the issue is not with the prints, but with the settings on your projector(s).

The sound drops are due to a “security watermark” whose effect can apparently be corrected by properly re-balancing sound levels between Digital and Analog.

Below is the official explanation…

“There are 3 digital sound reversions within reel 5 of Indiana Jones, where the sound will switch from Digital to Analog. These reversions are part of a security system that is embedded within all prints of Indiana Jones. If you should experience sound level issues between digital and analog you will have to re-balance the sound levels between Digital and Analog and this will correct the situation. The reversion should only last a few seconds within reel 5.”

If your tech people need further assistance, please have them contact Deluxe Film Service.

I guess what really irritates me about this is that people seem to think this is OK. To intentionally revert to analog audio and play a square-wave is just stupid. This kind of thing will keep people out of the theaters...

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Mike Blakesley
Film God

Posts: 5432
From: Forsyth, Montana
Registered: Jun 99

posted 05-29-2008 12:02 PM

quote: Blaine Young
This kind of thing will keep people out of the theaters...

Nah. If the theatre's sound system is set up properly, and idiot owners don't post stupid signs calling attention to the problem, 99.9% of people will either never notice, or think it's a small glitch and forget about it by the end of the movie.

We're playing this next week, I'm looking forward to finding out how it's going to sound here. I don't think we'll have any complaints.

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David Stambaugh
Film God

Posts: 3463
From: Eugene, Oregon
Registered: Jan 2002

posted 05-29-2008 12:52 PM

If this is indeed on all prints, how come I didn't hear it? I mean I was paying close attention esp. in reel 5, and I'm sure there were no drops to analog. Dropping out to analog is usually very audible if you're paying attention, no matter how carefully the system is set up. How could they possibly mask multiple such dropouts?

Has it been established yet exactly what they're doing on DTS playback? Are the CDs encoded with some audible sound?

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Lyle Romer
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 700
From: Davie, FL, USA
Registered: May 2002

posted 05-29-2008 01:00 PM

Maybe Paramount's argument would work if it was done during a quite scene but somebody should tell them that digital soundtracks have wider dynamic range than an SR track (and many theaters still have "A" as back up). So even if the system is properly set up the volume in a loud sequence will drop when the switch to SR happens. Additionally you will lose the LFE channel and the stereo surround. If Paramount has figured out a way to make an SR track sound exactly like a digital track then they could have saved a lot of people a lot of money on the digital sound upgrade.

quote: David Stambaugh
If this is indeed on all prints, how come I didn't hear it?

Was your show presented in DTS? As far as I can tell, DTS does not drop out and sounds just fine. Another possibility is that the show ran in SR from start to finish due to a mis-thread or other malfunction of the digital system.

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David Stambaugh
Film God

Posts: 3463
From: Eugene, Oregon
Registered: Jan 2002

posted 05-29-2008 01:05 PM

quote: Lyle Romer
Another possibility is that the show ran in SR from start to finish

It was definitely digital, with split surrounds. I don't know for sure if it was Dolby or DTS but everything was 100% digital from start to finish including all trailers and there were no audible "issues". I'll see if I can find out for sure. [Wink]

Has anyone recorded this audible reversion in a properly-aligned SR-D setup so we can hear what it is we're supposed to notice?

And what the heck good is this audio CAP code if it doesn't work with DTS? [Confused]

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Dustin Mitchell
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1675
From: Mondovi, WI, USA
Registered: Mar 2000

posted 05-29-2008 02:06 PM

I wonder is Spielberg knew about this and signed off on it? Would certainly be a bit hypocritical, all the stink that was made over showing 35mm. Unless you're playing it in DTS this would mean the digital version is definately of better quality than the 35mm.

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Ron Funderburg
Master Film Handler

Posts: 395
From: Chickasha, Oklahoma, USA
Registered: Nov 2007

posted 05-29-2008 02:24 PM

Mike is right if the sound systems are aligned right and the sound levels are close most folks will not notice it. Now if Dolby makes some kind of noise on it's own when it drops out that is different but most people don't know the difference unless the levels are out of a lot or there is something else that draws their attention to it.

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Rick Raskin
Master Film Handler

Posts: 361
From: Manassas Virginia
Registered: Jan 2003

posted 05-29-2008 03:46 PM

I just saw IJ on film at the Regal in Manassas, VA. I was paying close attention during reel 5 and did not notice any dropouts or unusual tones.

Their presentation was okay but I did notice 2 mid-reel splices during the show that showed a white line at the join and cause a noticable blip in the sound.

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Phil Hill
I love my cootie bug

Posts: 6672
From: Hollywood, California USA, 1465 miles west of Rockwall, TX
Registered: Mar 2000

posted 05-29-2008 04:03 PM

quote: Mike Blakesley
I don't think we'll have any complaints.

Ya know Mike, I'm thinking of coming up there to your theatre and watching that film in my Inspector Clouseau disguise and then complain to you about the sound just to yank your chain! You will NEVER recognize me! HA! Huggs! [Razz]

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Mike Blakesley
Film God

Posts: 5432
From: Forsyth, Montana
Registered: Jun 99

posted 05-29-2008 06:00 PM

Phil, you'd never survive here...temps still in the low to mid 60s! [Big Grin]

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