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» Film-Tech Forums   » Film Handler's Forum   » Audio CAP on Indy (Page 4)

 
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Author Topic: Audio CAP on Indy
Brad Miller
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From: Rockwall, Texas, USA (a safe 1465 miles away from COOTVILLE, California)
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 - posted 05-25-2008 03:22 AM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
The problem is NOT with the reel. The problem is either with there DTS or Optical reader. There reader is out of alignment. The track is set up to revert back to analog and 'IF" it's not there reader is out of alignment.

Jenna Mars
Booking Coordinator / Art Division
Eastern Territory
Deluxe Film Services

"Art Division" ??? So Deluxe considers fucking up the sound on the movies they print an art now?

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Robert LaValley
Film Handler

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From: Tampa, FL
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 - posted 05-25-2008 03:05 PM      Profile for Robert LaValley   Author's Homepage   Email Robert LaValley   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
This whole weekend I've gotten comlaints from customers about the sound dropping out and I checked all the equipement and the prints and its this damn audio-crap-code. I just have my staff apologise and tell them to write paramount to complain becuase of the problem being so "wide spread". Most people understand and hopefully will write paramount. It would be nice to see a bunch of people complain it ruined the movie for them so the studio would wake up and figure something different to prevent piracy. [Roll Eyes]

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Mike Schindler
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From: Oak Park, IL, USA
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 - posted 05-25-2008 03:56 PM      Profile for Mike Schindler   Email Mike Schindler   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Robert, when you say "sound dropping out," do you mean sound dropping out of digital or sound dropping out completely? What format are you using?

On our prints, the sound drops out of digital for about two seconds, and the switch from digital to analog and back is hidden by sound effects in the movie. The CAP code itself is something I would have never noticed had I not known where it was and been listening for it.

Is it possible that you have an unintentionally bad print?

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Brad Miller
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From: Rockwall, Texas, USA (a safe 1465 miles away from COOTVILLE, California)
Registered: May 99


 - posted 05-25-2008 04:02 PM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
The problem here stems from the equipment setup. First, some processors like the CP500 and most firmware on the DFP3000 put a tiny "blip/mute" in the sound during revisions to analog. THAT is very noticeable.

The second problem is if the analog isn't resorting to SR (many theaters only have reverting to A).

Third, another problem is if the analog reader is not precisely aligned, there will be a huge difference in level and quality or in some cases one side of the theater's sound may disappear in the instance of a badly aligned analog reader.

Fourth, there are still people running DFP2000s out there. On those the "0.0" is supposed to be calibrated against the "7.0" setting on the analog processor, but the issue here is that few people actually run at 0.0 / 7.0 and turning it down becomes an almost impossibility to precisely level match up the digital and even the most perfectly aligned SR. To make matters worse, the internal pink noise generator is hf deficient in those units, so the tonal quality will be noticeable any way you slice it.

What about people who foolishly bought into the dts6-ad joke? The analog on those is godawful!!! Again, a major noticeable difference during the dropout.

I know of several theaters that do not have analog backup sound too, or their analog has a horrible hum/buzz in the sound. Yes people can point the finger at the tech, but many techs out there are responsible for hundreds of screens and quite simply do not have the time! (I am speaking of chain techs where this is most common, but that isn't their fault.)

Then there are other issues such as a scratch being on the analog soundtrack, etc. The list goes on.

Art division???

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Robert LaValley
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From: Tampa, FL
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 - posted 05-25-2008 05:20 PM      Profile for Robert LaValley   Author's Homepage   Email Robert LaValley   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Mike Schindler
Robert, when you say "sound dropping out," do you mean sound dropping out of digital or sound dropping out completely? What format are you using?
We have the CP650's and running in dolby digital and I should have wrote dropping out of digital cuz your right I did make it sound like it was dropping out completely which is isnt. As for it being a bad print, it isnt becuase we have 5 prints that all do the same thing and I have ran them all in a bunch of different houses in my 12 screen (we've been interlocking alot) so I definately attribute the format switch to the cap code. Especially since I have watched it go through the reader and witnessed the effect myself. Our customers seem more picky then most theatres I have been at which is fine for me cuz it keeps me on my A-game. Plus I'm only getting error levels of 2 or 3 using Vic-5's basement sound readers so I dont see any other reason why it would just randomly switch.

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Marco Giustini
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From: Reggio Emilia - Italy
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 - posted 05-25-2008 05:39 PM      Profile for Marco Giustini   Email Marco Giustini   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I was watching at reel 5 today from booth. Still have to see the whole movie from the auditorium.
Seems that it's different from Technicolor's crap. Tech's one is usually put during quite scene and a "blip" is heard in the auditorium.
Deluxe's crap is put on very loud scene, since it mute the sound for a perforation (the blue bubble on the S/T) and they want to recognize precisely the mute moments.

Now some observations:

1. The blue bubble will mute the analog sound for a perforation, that is 1/96 of a second. Do you know an auditorium with a reverberation time equal or less of 1/96 of a second??? In other words, the reverberation will cover that mute, IMHO. The only way to recognize that CAP is when someone will record the sound directly from the sound processor.
2. I just checked from booth two of the three CrAP. Loud scenes. In that moments the SR will be more noticeable for sure! Dynamic, surrounds, subs...

I agree with Brad: it's insane to think that all theaters has perfectly aligned sound systems and latest sound processors.

Marco

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Bruce Hansen
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 - posted 05-26-2008 09:58 AM      Profile for Bruce Hansen   Email Bruce Hansen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
It's too bad that corporate greed is more important than quality.

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Marco Giustini
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 - posted 05-26-2008 06:43 PM      Profile for Marco Giustini   Email Marco Giustini   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Just saw Indy 4.

Was in DTS and I was not able to hear anything. But I'm sure that DTS will not drop. It could be like Technicolor CAP where DTS is able to insert the CAP directly on sound, but I don't think so, since the release of the DTS.EXE used is still the 2007 one.

I'll see reel 5 in a SRD house soon.

Marco

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Brad Miller
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 - posted 05-26-2008 07:38 PM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
There is no way a dts6 or a dts6d or a dts6ad player could insert audio cap code into the sound. Maybe the XD10 could be upgraded to do it, but certainly not the older players. As such, if the dts does indeed NOT drop out to analog, what Deluxe is doing is intentionally causing failures targeted at Dolby and Sony's product and hopefully a nice fat juicy lawsuit will be forthcoming.

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Blaine Young
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 - posted 05-26-2008 08:26 PM      Profile for Blaine Young   Email Blaine Young   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The only way I could see of them causing the DTS to drop out is to mis-print the DTS timecode for several feet. Even a gap of 4 frames as shown in these images will be 'ignored', assuming when the timecode resumes, the film and player are still in sync. I think the code has to be missing for something like 4-6 feet before the player will drop out of Digital.

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Marco Giustini
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 - posted 05-26-2008 09:19 PM      Profile for Marco Giustini   Email Marco Giustini   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Brad

I heard personally the CAP code on DTS while in DTS, same place where SRD drops. That MSDOS machine can insert that, don't ask me how, seems very strange to me too because this means that on timecode there is print number encoded.
I spoke with a Technicolor tech once that confirm me that (was very proud of it), but I was able to hear with my own ears before. The "blip" comes from the center channel only, and DTS will NOT drop. Less noticeable, at least.

My opinion is that Deluxe has still to work with DTS to have its new garbage on DTS too. Or, perhaps, they will never put on DTS, since I suppose that DTS will not do it for free and that a laser put on a printer is cheaper than a new release of software for all DTS machines! [Smile]

Marco

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Frank Angel
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 - posted 05-27-2008 01:41 AM      Profile for Frank Angel   Author's Homepage   Email Frank Angel   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
You know, if this stuff were actually stopping piracy, then one could understand the studios' reasoning and maybe we wouldn't feel so outraged about it. But has anyone heard about ANY pirating rings stopped or brought to justice directly due to this nonsensical system?

Has that humungous dollar figure loss they give out every so often been reduced since the introduction of these new audio CrAPs? If any of their anti-piracy efforts were even marginally effective, we should see some reduction in that loss figure. Seems to me, if you were to stop even a portion of the hemorage of profit, what a windfall, eh? Hey, they could even reduce ticket prices if they could stop priracy and give the theatres better percentages. Yah, right.

Funny thing is, that loss figure only goes UP every time it's quoted. And if CrAPs ARE effective, why doesn't the MPAA trumpeted their successful prosecutions? NAME the "pirates" who have been stopped and gone to jail because of a noise on the soundtrack and blotches on the screen. Surely it would be to their benefit to let it generally be know thru their many press releases while they're blathering on and on about the cost of piracy to them, that this or that piracy ring with warehouses full of DVDs of this or that hot title were discovered because of this CrAP system. That certainly hasn't happened AFAIK.

So either this new audio CrAP system is just an exercise in futility which their security divisions spend their time devising so they can justify their existence, OR....how bout this theory.....any chance the studios have insurance policies against piracy? Maybe this is a smoke-screen to satisfy the insurance companies that the studios are doing everything they can to thwart bootleggers.....so that they can collect on that 100 THOUSAND GAZILLION dollars they claim they loose every year to piracy. Okay, I said it's just a theory. [Eek!]

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Joe Redifer
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 - posted 05-27-2008 02:10 AM      Profile for Joe Redifer   Author's Homepage   Email Joe Redifer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Frank Angel
has anyone heard about ANY pirating rings stopped or brought to justice directly due to this nonsensical system?
Of course not. You'd think they'd want to advertise how many pirates they have stopped in order to scare/prevent other pirates from copying in the first place, but they never mention anything. My guess is because they haven't caught anyone. Also if thy say they caught anyone, they won't be able to complain about piracy as much. It's a real catch 22: do the studios like to scare pirates from even daring to pirate movies more, or do they enjoy whining about piracy more? My guess is the latter.

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Marco Giustini
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 - posted 05-27-2008 05:16 AM      Profile for Marco Giustini   Email Marco Giustini   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Unfortunately there's a guy in Italy that has been caught with that Cap on sound. He (says) was not really a pirate, just an ingenuous projectionist, but has been caught.

Was on newspapers many months ago.

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Joe Redifer
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 - posted 05-27-2008 06:18 AM      Profile for Joe Redifer   Author's Homepage   Email Joe Redifer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
He must have hooked his audio straight from the processor into whatever he was using to record.

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